Sign in to follow this  
Fi5kuS

PMDG 777 difficulty

Recommended Posts

Hi!

 

Can anyone recommend any tutorial (videos) of more advanced ways of flying the PMDG 777, or how to more accurately and realistically plan descent etc? Of course, it depends on what approach you are flying, but for now I find ILS approaches, where the FMC basically does all the work, coupled with FS2Crew, a bit boring during long hauls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

If you own the 777, you can read through the tutorial that is included, which is pretty in depth for a beginner.  Another way to learn is to take notes while watching the countless videos on YouTube.  There are a few good video creators that do a heck of a job planning and flying short and long haul flights there.  Personally, I have learned a lot more just by watching others perform their flights, but everyone learns in different ways.  The included PDFs with PMDG's aircraft are quite extensive, but realize that the information they provide is directly from Boeing, with a little more provided by the developers and beta testers when the aircraft was being developed.

 

One other note to bear in mind, that if you are looking to perform more advanced flights, you should have the right tools at your disposal.  PFPX (developed by Aerosoft) is a great way to learn realistic flight planning, coupled with TOPCAT, which again is a very useful tool that works in conjunction with PFPX.  Having realistic weather is another add-on to have, and ActiveSkyNext fits the bill as it's information can be pulled into PMDG's 777, to create more realism for the 'advanced' flying you are looking for.

 

Hope this helps you out.

 

-Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just try non precision approaches then.

 

Fly an NDB or VOR with TCK SEL and Vert Spd mode or FPA mode (flight path angle).

Or try it with Lnav+Vnav or Lnav and VS/FPA.

 

Fly full procesures (no radar vectors) with course reversal patterns and vertical profile as published on the approach chart.

 

If you want realy challenging then try basic navigation (Cessna like flying).Switch from ND (EFIS) map mode to ILS or VOR mode and try approaches without a map display and see how good your positional awareness is when you dont have a map displaying your route!

 

Etc.

 

Lnav Vnav followed by ILS is a bit boring yes....but it is also realistic. Nothing makes me more happy after a 9hr night flight than a boring ILS ;-)

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can anyone recommend any tutorial (videos) of more advanced ways of flying the PMDG 777, or how to more accurately and realistically plan descent etc? Of course, it depends on what approach you are flying, but for now I find ILS approaches, where the FMC basically does all the work, coupled with FS2Crew, a bit boring during long hauls.

 

Tutorial #1.5 (on the Download page of the PMDG site) gets into some more advanced stuff. Interestingly enough, I usually find myself doing lots of work to keep me engaged and more efficient throughout a flight. That usually involves checking weather, tracking fuel burn, and so on. The 777's long legs don't keep you too entertained, especially because the plane is so heavily automated. Unfortunately, as of yet, there isn't any good system to simulate the Atlantic crossing, as they heavily use ADS-C and CPDLC. That would keep you a little more engaged, but would require you to flying on an online network. Even then, ADS-C is more controller driven than anything else (ADS-C allows a controller to set up a 'contract' with the aircraft's systems to alert them when passing a particular fix, as an example, so the reporting requirement by the crew can be dropped, in theory). Keep in mind, as well, that in order to satisfy duty time requirements, 777 flights will often have multiple crews, and you would leave the deck to go back in the crew rest area to sleep, read, or otherwise entertain yourself (thus my lack of qualms with walking upstairs to fire up the XBOX or similar). When beta testing the 777, I would occasionally even go for a 50-60mi bike ride while the plane cruised along on its own.

 

Not sure what you mean by "realistically plan descent," though. What you learned in Tutorial #1 is the 90% scenario of an actual descent. Sure, there are contingency techniques for a delayed descent by ATC, or an off-path descent, but you're not 'cheating' in how you do it in VNAV. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tutorial #1.5 (on the Download page of the PMDG site) gets into some more advanced stuff. Interestingly enough, I usually find myself doing lots of work to keep me engaged and more efficient throughout a flight. That usually involves checking weather, tracking fuel burn, and so on. The 777's long legs don't keep you too entertained, especially because the plane is so heavily automated. Unfortunately, as of yet, there isn't any good system to simulate the Atlantic crossing, as they heavily use ADS-C and CPDLC. That would keep you a little more engaged, but would require you to flying on an online network. Even then, ADS-C is more controller driven than anything else (ADS-C allows a controller to set up a 'contract' with the aircraft's systems to alert them when passing a particular fix, as an example, so the reporting requirement by the crew can be dropped, in theory). Keep in mind, as well, that in order to satisfy duty time requirements, 777 flights will often have multiple crews, and you would leave the deck to go back in the crew rest area to sleep, read, or otherwise entertain yourself (thus my lack of qualms with walking upstairs to fire up the XBOX or similar). When beta testing the 777, I would occasionally even go for a 50-60mi bike ride while the plane cruised along on its own.

 

Not sure what you mean by "realistically plan descent," though. What you learned in Tutorial #1 is the 90% scenario of an actual descent. Sure, there are contingency techniques for a delayed descent by ATC, or an off-path descent, but you're not 'cheating' in how you do it in VNAV. 

On a long haul, I fraternize with the flight attendant. :wink:  

 

-Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tutorial #1.5 (on the Download page of the PMDG site) gets into some more advanced stuff. Interestingly enough, I usually find myself doing lots of work to keep me engaged and more efficient throughout a flight. That usually involves checking weather, tracking fuel burn, and so on. The 777's long legs don't keep you too entertained, especially because the plane is so heavily automated. Unfortunately, as of yet, there isn't any good system to simulate the Atlantic crossing, as they heavily use ADS-C and CPDLC. That would keep you a little more engaged, but would require you to flying on an online network. Even then, ADS-C is more controller driven than anything else (ADS-C allows a controller to set up a 'contract' with the aircraft's systems to alert them when passing a particular fix, as an example, so the reporting requirement by the crew can be dropped, in theory). Keep in mind, as well, that in order to satisfy duty time requirements, 777 flights will often have multiple crews, and you would leave the deck to go back in the crew rest area to sleep, read, or otherwise entertain yourself (thus my lack of qualms with walking upstairs to fire up the XBOX or similar). When beta testing the 777, I would occasionally even go for a 50-60mi bike ride while the plane cruised along on its own.

 

Not sure what you mean by "realistically plan descent," though. What you learned in Tutorial #1 is the 90% scenario of an actual descent. Sure, there are contingency techniques for a delayed descent by ATC, or an off-path descent, but you're not 'cheating' in how you do it in VNAV. 

 

Thanks for an comprehensive answer, Kyle. Yes, I have been looking into the 1.5 tutorial (which is great btw), but it basically covers setting up the aircraft etc. I think what I meant to say is that, I am way to bored during cruise!

 

The atlantic crossing procedures surely keeps one occupied from time to time, but when not flying on VATSIM for instance, I find it unnecessary. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never been bored in an actual cockpit....a perfect flight is an uneventful flight but just being in the air is existence in a different universe. I'm also the guy when having to fly in coach takes the window seat and leaves nose prints on the window like a dog in a car. In sumulation I have found that flying over new territory opens the door to new worlds via google map and wikipedia. Took a trip from Amsterdam to Bankok once and overflew countries I've never heard of... uneventful ok, boring never. On the other hand my day job as an engineer could get so boring!

 

The ocean crossings should be spent keeping up to date with weather at your ETOPs destinations, fuel at each waypoint verses planned, looking up  the charts to your ETOPS destination and being absolutely sure that when it hits the fan in the next 5 min you have a plan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for an comprehensive answer, Kyle. Yes, I have been looking into the 1.5 tutorial (which is great btw), but it basically covers setting up the aircraft etc. I think what I meant to say is that, I am way to bored during cruise!

 

The atlantic crossing procedures surely keeps one occupied from time to time, but when not flying on VATSIM for instance, I find it unnecessary. 

Time compression can help speed things along.  :wink:

 

-Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a guy on youtube Matt Davies who flies long hauls in the T7 and he goes through the pre-flight and all the way to descent planning and landing. He's pretty good and even though I've been flying the 777 its good to see how someone else sets up a flight. If you have the Big Boeing FMC Guide that's always good reading during the cruise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...being absolutely sure that when it hits the fan in the next 5 min you have a plan.

 

:lol:

 

That's true!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never been bored in an actual cockpit....a perfect flight is an uneventful flight but just being in the air is existence in a different universe. I'm also the guy when having to fly in coach takes the window seat and leaves nose prints on the window like a dog in a car.

 

I had this just yesterday as a passenger during a nightly home bound flight on an "easy jet" A320. Recognizing European cities by their shape of lighting along the route from Spain to Germany via France, Belgium and Netherlands was great! B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would love scenarios/turtorials for abnormal education/procedures to simulate.

 

I know it would require an ab normal among of knowledge but maybe some kind of turtorial for basics failures and what to look for.

 

I know i can just start with the great QRH and the cool Electronic checklist but in- deep knowledge of the airsystems and how they works makes it really hard to understand sometimes what i actually is doing .

 

would actually love to pay for turtorials in QRH/failures basics.

 

 

Side questions:

 

When or which scenario/situation do we use the TRACK/HEADING switch ?

 

and backcourse ILS  scenario?

 

 

 

Thanks

 

Michael Moe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heading select is used when ATC gives you a heading to fly or when a procedure requires you to fly a heading (often after take off).

 

Track Select is used when you want to fly a track (which is heading compensated for cross wind).

The black lines on instrument approach charts /a holding pattern/a course reversal/a visual circling procedure (downwind/base turn)...those are all tracks and can be flown easily with track select as it automatically corrects for wind drift :-)

Most approaches are in your database so you would fly them with Lnav, but if there is little time to program things (below 10.000ft or in busy terminal areas you should not be heads down in the FMC too long...you should be looking out the window and concentrate on flying) you can use direct modes such as Vertical speed and Track Select rather than Lnav and Vnav.

Sometimes approaches are not in the database so you would use track select to fly non precision approaches....or, in FSX, use track select rather than Lnav just because it is fun to fly NDB and VOR approaches like that :-)

 

Also, to maneuver clear of a thunderstom, you can use use track select which is easier than heading select.

 

Backcourse ILS are also flown with Track select (or Lnav) because the 777 can not capture a back course localizer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heading select is used when ATC gives you a heading to fly or when a procedure requires you to fly a heading (often after take off).

 

Track Select is used when you want to fly a track (which is heading compensated for cross wind).

The black lines on instrument approach charts /a holding pattern/a course reversal/a visual circling procedure (downwind/base turn)...those are all tracks and can be flown easily with track select as it automatically corrects for wind drift :-)

Most approaches are in your database so you would fly them with Lnav, but if there is little time to program things (below 10.000ft or in busy terminal areas you should not be heads down in the FMC too long...you should be looking out the window and concentrate on flying) you can use direct modes such as Vertical speed and Track Select rather than Lnav and Vnav.

Sometimes approaches are not in the database so you would use track select to fly non precision approaches....or, in FSX, use track select rather than Lnav just because it is fun to fly NDB and VOR approaches like that :-)

 

Also, to maneuver clear of a thunderstom, you can use use track select which is easier than heading select.

 

Backcourse ILS are also flown with Track select (or Lnav) because the 777 can not capture a back course localizer.

 

 

do i understand this correctly that you setup your FMC with ndb approach, circling/holdings or go around NDB´s , VOR´S and then do the radials by hand with TRCK selected ? (i guess even alot of STARS could be done with this method ? SVEDA1F EKCH SVD/210)

 

 

I would LOVE a short video with TRACK and also backcourse ILS explained in visual as well  :wink:

 

 

Thanks

 

Michael Moe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the procedure is in the database, then, if you want to make full use of the 777 navigational capabilities, select it amd use Lnav to fly it.

(And Vnav as well once you know how to use it)

 

NDB, VOR and their missed approaches are most often in your database.

Selecting the VOR16 approach into LOWW for example will draw the magenta lines on your navigation display and thus Lnav can be used to fly the approach.

Either you follow the Flight Directors or you can let the AP do all the work.

The missed approach is drawn as well, including the holding pattern, and if you perform a GO AROUND then Lnav command the FD or the AP accordingly

 

Selecting the approach from the database will (should) also cause the FMC autotune feature to automatically tune the required navigational aids.

This is a nice feature because some airline SOP require you to check with VOR needles (and DME if DME is required for the procedure) that the procedure is flown correctly by Lnav.

 

Just the same , an NDB approach can be selected from the database and flown with Lnav.

And again, normally that is how approaches are flown these days....with Lnav (and Vnav).

The autotune feature is not available for NDBs however.

If you want to (or have to depending on SOP) check that Lnav is flying the approach correctly, then NDBs have to be manually entered into the FMC NavRad page to the ADF pointer appear on your ND

 

Cicling procedures are not in the database.

Those you will have to fly with HDG or TCK SEL (or completely by hand with both FD and AP off....you can still use the ND track line to see where you are going though!)

Ofcourse I would use TCK SEL and I would keep the AP engaged because it is much easier to fly a downwind track of 161 degrees with TCK SEL than with HDG SEL when you have for example a crosswind wind from 030/20kt.

 

As soon as you have selected an approach from the database there is no need for TCK or HDG SEL anymore (except for using those basic modes to intercept your Lnav track).

Why would you want to be messing with TCK or HDG SEL mode to try and stay on that magenta line if Lnav will do that for you much easier?

Only when Lnav is not available (approach not in the database/GPS or other system faults (FMC failures) that made Lnav inop, only then would you HAVE TO use basic modes like TCK and HDG SEL to follow the VOR and NDB needles.

You would be flying an approach the conventional way in that situation because the Lnav magenta line would not be available.

 

By the way, even an ILS could be flown with LNAV and VNAV....simply do not arm the LOC and GS but keep Lnav and Vnav engaged instead.

Not something you would normally do since an ILS is such a precise and easy procedure, that it makes no sence to use Lnav/Vnav for it...but it is possible.(VOR/NDB are not precise nor easy and Lnav and Vnav help a lot there!)

LNAV and VNAV would be flying down the ILS path in that case, and since the FMC autotune feature would have autotuned the ILS frequency, you can check if LNAV/VNAV is doing a good job by looking at the LOC and GS pointers (they will stay white (not engaged=white) and are called ghost pointers in that case).

 

 

I am not the person to ask for videos....no time to figure out how to do that, I am sorry.....I hope this helps a bit though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks but i am pretty up to date regarding LNAV/VNAV and IAN etc. But i was just refering to your first post for challenge purpose.

 

So STAR SVD1F SVD radial/course out 210 could be used with TRCK and also with A/P on or off? Will try that next time instead of LNAV. If AP is on what is engaged on the MCP? Heading select?

 

Thanks Michael Moe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mm...well, if you are up to speed on things then I think we have a language barrier problem here :-(

 

Cause I have no idea what you are trying to do!

 

1)

"So STAR SVD1F SVD radial/course out 210 could be used with TRCK"

??

You want to track radial 210 outbound from SDV?

You can do that with anything you like....as long as you stay on radial 210 it doesnt matter how you did it.

With Lnav...with HDG SEL....with TCK SEL with nothing but your hands steering the 777 around without FD and without AP....whatever you want.

There are simply different options and it is your job to choose the one that makes most sence or you feel most comfortable with.

 

2)

"and also with A/P on or off?"

??

You want to fly without AP and without FD?.

In that case there are no modes to select on the MCP....no Lnav, no TCK SEL, no HDG SEL....you are flying the conventional way.

 

Or do you want to fly with FD but without AP?

In that case see 1)

 

3)

"If AP is on what is engaged on the MCP? Heading select? "

You need to read the book about the PFD annunciations!

It will tell you on the PFD what is engaged.....not just Lnav/HDG SEL/TCK SEL but also AP or FD.

"AP" will be indiacted on the PFD if the autopilot is engaged.

"FD "will be indiacted if the autopilot is not engaged but the flight director is on.

 

Heading select (just like TCk SEL and Lnav) is a mode that the AP can follow, or the FD can give steering commands which you can follow (AP disengaged).

 

 

If this does not help then you need to explain in other words please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heading select (just like TCk SEL and Lnav) is a mode that the AP can follow, or the FD can give steering commands which you can follow (AP disengaged).

 

 

If this does not help then you need to explain in other words please.

 

+1 The info i just needed about TRACK select thanks  :wink:  I will try explain myself more clearly next time and look into the FCOM for more info about TRACK vs HEADING selection. 

 

 

 

 

Normally i just fly the magenta "Vector 210" out of SVEDA with LNAV until ATC gives me a Vector heading  so i was just trying to understand the "follow the magenta in another way"

 

If i understand it correctly i could use TRCK which compensates for wind and if i have "programmed and follow" "Vector /210 out of SVD" the magenta should be easy to follow with TRACK as it compensates for wind ?

 

LNAV is the easiest way offcause in this matter

 

Thanks

 

Michael moe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

If i understand it correctly i could use TRCK which compensates for wind and if i have "programmed and follow" "Vector /210 out of SVD" the magenta should be easy to follow with TRACK as it compensates for wind ?

 

LNAV is the easiest way offcause in this matter

 

Thanks

 

Michael moe

Yes, correct.

 

One of THE most important chapter to read through is the "AUTOMATIC FLIGHT" chapter (Chapter 4)  in the PMDG777-FCOMv2.

It starts on page 295 according Goodreader on my iPad.

 

This chapter tells you exactly what each button on the MCP does, when a certain mode can be engaged and how it can be disengaged.

 

Glad we got things sorted out :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this