I am pretty sure that any problems or technical difficulties with the L-D 767 have been/are being/will be discussed quite thoroughly here on Avsim as well. Perhaps the motivation is to keep the tech portion of their forums from getting bogged down by non-related stuff? I dunno. Surely there is a good reason for it.But I've read plenty here on Avsim to warrant a smart purchase decision.-JeremyThe Ozark DogfighterHappy Flying!

It's so people who didn't pay for the add-on don't get forum tech supportI disagree with the idea, because I too like to get a feel for what issues there are, even minor ones such as VC lighting is bad, etc.But the LDS is one of the finest add-ons ever and because of that, I looked past the forum thing.

Bob, the 767 is backed by Flight1's refund policy. If you decide within 30 days you don't like it, you can get your money back.What do you have to lose? :) Theres more to be gained than lost.

Well many times, on this forum, I would see postings by people stating that such and such product was having problems with this feature or that feature not working. This information was obtained by reading the forum or message board for that product. I have decided to buy and not to buy many times, based on the frequency of similar complaints and the lack of a posted solution by the actual owners of the product. I have read forums on Ultimate Terrain, Ultimate Traffic, PMDG, ATR -72, Aeroworx, Bill Lyons, FS Navigator, Active Sky, CH Products, FS Genesis, Track IR, Misty Fjords, Alaska Cinematic, etc..... the list goes on and on. This is the first time I have ever run into a product that requires a purchase before they let you see their forum and any complaints or problems regarding the product prior to buying it. I understand that 100% refund is possible, but that in no way addresses this issue. It is a precident that I don't like to see get started in the PC flight simulator industry and I for one, am not going to support a company that thinks this is the way to go.

I fully agree with that statement above... but it was not flight1's decision, and i have been told they were against it, but LevelD had a policy and they wanted it, so in the end Flight1 had to agree.

Bob, mate I am SURE if you ask in the general part of our forum you will see its not such a horrible product. But I would leave that siggy here ;) lolGary HayesLevel-D Simulations Development TeamNo im not a "real" pilot, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.P4 3.0ghz w/HT & FSB..Radeon X850XT 256MB..1 gig PC3200 DDR RAM..Sound Blaster Audigy w/5.1 THX

Fair enough Bob. Your choice and dare I say, loss :)

Level D's forum policy is way out of line compared to all those other developers you list, but having said that the aircraft is very good and probably a more deserving winner of that gong that went to the PMDG 747 which IMHO is still work in progess. I guess it all depends on whether not supporting Level D because of the forum thing is more important than having a fine aircraft in your virtual hanger. Your call.Bruceb

> I have read forums on Ultimate Terrain, Ultimate Traffic,>PMDG, ATR -72, Aeroworx, Bill Lyons, FS Navigator, Active Sky,> CH Products, FS Genesis, Track IR, Misty Fjords, Alaska>Cinematic, etc..... the list goes on and on. This is the>first time I have ever run into a product that requires a>purchase before they let you see their forum and any>complaints or problems regarding the product prior to buying>it. I understand that 100% refund is possible, but that in no>way addresses this issue. It is a precident that I don't like>to see get started in the PC flight simulator industry and I>for one, am not going to support a company that thinks this is>the way to go. Bob; I think many folks have lost sight of how unusual a no-questions-asked 100% refund policy is in the software world. And there's enough collective history with Flight1 for us to know that they actually carry through on their promise in that regard. Without F1's iron-clad refund policy backing them up, I would be squarely in your camp...but in this case I think Level-D has hit on a reasonable compromise between users wanting to make sure they're not throwing money away on a lemon, and LDS not wanting to divert their limited product support resources to those who aren't legitimate customers. The solution...become a legit customer, and if it doesn't suit you, bail out within a month. In the grand scheme of things, there are lots of other bad practices worth throwing down on...Captain Sim, who shut down their forum rather than deal with the consequences of their horrid software...FSD and their control-freak approach to reinstalls and support forum access...Lago with their "lights on but nobody's home" unattended support forums...PSS with their "we'll only allow your post if we like it" support forum moderation...the list goes on. In the case of LDS, you can try it and keep your right to vote thumbs down until well after you get to actually install and fly it. Seems fair to me. All that said, I don't think you can find an add-on more universally praised than the LDS 767...and for good reason. You can stick by your guns on this one, but in the end, you're only shooting yourself in the foot.CheersBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Santiago de Chile

Hi Guys,Plenty can be seen and is known about the LDS767 from the public forums and the FAQ. The decision to lock down the forum to registered users only was designed to hold down the cost of the product. Every bit of tech support on a product has a measurable cost in time. This time does cost money especially when tech support is given to illegal users of the software. We at Flight One and at Level-D do not want to charge $50 or more for the product so we have to look at cost savings wherever possible. Removing the ability for illegal users to cost time via support pages is a very valid place to save money, for us and for you.Given that this is a first attempt at a more locked support forum we have been seeing growing pains. None of the people involved with the 767 enjoy the fact that you can not get in and read issues that are posted. Our desire is only to have non-registered users not posting. We will be looking in the future to allow viewing of the forum without posting abilities. This will provide the cost savings for you and us while allowing you access to see what is being said on the tech side of the product.More than one public forum is available to view now and I would encourage you to look through those. In my opiniion, you will get more than enough information on the product via those.Avsim is also a great resource to see what people are saying about the product. Check around here. I would say that at least 90% of product issues are mentioned here before they even reach the support forum.As always, Flight One will stand behind any product we sell. If you are not satisfied, let us know, we will make sure you will be. We will continue to strive to give you the best products at the lowest cost possible, and we will continue to look into new and innovative ways to do it. In the end we are working to make your flight simulation experience may realistic and enjoyable, take the plunge and jump behind the yoke of the 767, you will not be disappointed.Best Regards,Tom MainFlight One Software

People (not just aimed at Bob),I will this once (again) write about the Forum policy of Level-D. I would like to hope that this horse didn't have to be beaten to death at regular intervals, since there's really not much to beat anymore.1. The PRODUCT SUPPORT forums (Or more generally: Level-D Licensed Member Forums) are Open to ALL Level-D customers by simply registering for support. This has been done for multitude of reasons:a) Product support forum needs to deal with Product support ISSUES, not general praising/bashing/whatever types of posts. This way we can keep the support issues in ONE place in a nice orderly fashion, and this also helps the DEVELOPERS to see the real issues in ONE place.:( Level-D does NOT support pirated copies of the 767, obviously. I am not a part of the development team, but I do know that every possible measure will be taken to prevent pirating of their 767, which also goes for the support side. By registering for support as a valid customer, support is given only to people who have bought the product. Not really unreasonable.c)The development team has a full right to decide how and where they are giving their product support. It is of no concern to anyone non-customer where customers are being given tech support. If they choose a way of protected customer support forum, so be it.2. There is NO secrecy / hiding / conspiracy (pick your favorite) going on behind the decision to keep the support issues for customers only. If you do think there is, please read point 1 again, until after you have looped from point 1 to 2 enough times to grasp it. This is utter nonsense, and even I as a beta tester recent these kinds of ridiculous accusations because I know these guys better than the vast majority of users/customers. We're proud of the aircraft, not ashamed of it!3. If and when NON-CUSTOMERS desire information on exactly HOW good or bad the 767 is, what its strenghts are and what it is lacking in, Please:a) Post at Level-D General Discussion forum, which has MOST of the licensed customers posting there about anything Level-D related. You can often see even product support posts there even though they belong to the other forum (mostly from people not yet registered as customers).You can find that forum here (open for everyone): http://www.leveldsim.com/forums/forum_topics.asp?FID=4:( Post at AVSIM.COM MSFS General Discussions forum and make your question. You will get a lot of replies to satisfy your curiosity.c) Post at FLIGHTSIM.COM discussion forums and ask.d) Post at FSNORDIC.NET discussion forums and ask.e) Post at "yourfavoriteplace.whatever" discussion forums and ask.IF you find that the information gathered from sources a) to e) are insufficient, then I might suggest that you are either not listening (or reading) to what people are telling you, or you still have some kind of paranoia over not getting truthful answers from people outside the support forums.4. May I also remind the good people of this community about one thing. There is no REQUIREMENT for any open support in this "industry". You have a multitude of developers each doing it in their OWN way. Some provide email-only support, some have entirely open support forums, some choose to limit the entry of product problems to valid customers only. Where is your Windows XP support forum where MS developers give man-to-man support about your non-functioning video driver ? Where is your MS Flightsim support forum for the same purpose ?So: Get over this and use the available resources to get the information you need, and then make a decision to buy or not. IF you end up buying and then are terribly disappointed over some issue that is making you an unhappy camper, USE the 30-day money back guarantee and buy something else instead.TeroLevel-D Beta tester.

Bob,Like you I was somewhat put off by the closed forum, especially because I am the kind of simmer that will wait a looooong time thru fixes, patches, SPs, all the while tracking support issues before buying a product.I bought the LDS about 5 days ago,after the SP2 update - it is so good that it completely obliterated even my 'but I'm really not that much of a 767 flyer' objection - it sucked me in and immersed me in the world of a B767 pilot, and I am ecstatic.Like so many complex addons, many of the issues I have seen in the support forum are user-related, If you are a manual reading systems loving hardcore flyer, this one will reward you greatly.LDS promises to iron out any and all valid issues arising from SP2. I'm still learning but Ican't say I've experienced any.regards,MarkXPHomeSP2/FS9.1/3.2HT/1GIG/X700pro256

>I fully agree with that statement above... but it was not>flight1's decision, and i have been told they were against it,>but LevelD had a policy and they wanted it, so in the end>Flight1 had to agree.>That is incorrect.http://www.pic767flyingclub.com/siggies/ds.jpg

>Bob,>>Like you I was somewhat put off by the closed forum,>especially because I am the kind of simmer that will wait a>looooong time thru fixes, patches, SPs, all the while tracking>support issues before buying a product.>>I bought the LDS about 5 days ago,after the SP2 update - it is>so good that it completely obliterated even my 'but I'm really>not that much of a 767 flyer' objection - it sucked me in and>immersed me in the world of a B767 pilot, and I am ecstatic.>>Like so many complex addons, many of the issues I have seen in>the support forum are user-related, If you are a manual>reading systems loving hardcore flyer, this one will reward>you greatly.>>LDS promises to iron out any and all valid issues arising from>SP2. I'm still learning but Ican't say I've experienced any.>>regards,>Mark>>XPHomeSP2/FS9.1/3.2HT/1GIG/X700pro256I give up, after reading your post, I just bought it.. :)

"..Captain Sim, who shut down their forum rather than deal with the consequences of their horrid software...FSD and their control-freak approach to reinstalls and support forum access...Lago with their "lights on but nobody's home" unattended support forums...PSS with their "we'll only allow your post if we like it" support forum moderation...the list goes on."Spot on Bob. I've given up with all these outfits for just those reasons. Flight1 is the market leader for support as far as I'm concerned...products are pretty good too!Ian