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riccardo74

Which is your tecnique to land MD11 manually (no A/P no A/T)?

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Hi guys,

as title says. Which is your technique?

 

I have no problem when try to land manually after passed 1000' AGL, disconnect A/P and A/T and land safely enough.

 

But if I want to practice manually all the approach from IAF to FAF I have a lot of difficulties to keep the aircraft on correct glide path. I try to maintain the G/S adjusting the throttle and pitch manually, but most of the times I am to high on final and with an incorrect pitch configuration. The aircrat upon on final regains altitude and I have to make a go-around.

 

How do you perform your manual landing with this great aircraft?

 

Thanks in advance,

Ric

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When descending without any automation,  use pitch only to maintain the correct vertical speed/ glide slope, and use throttles only to maintain speed.

 

You can practice this by first doing some flights where you disconnect the A/P only, leaving the autothrottle on until it will disconnect itself at 50 feet RA. Note the engine readings which can assist you when you want to approach with manual throttle control.

 

BTW... the MD-11 has a full regime autothrottle and it is ok to keep the A/T engaged until 50 feet RA. This is different to many 737 procedures. The MD-11 has LSAS which deals with the effect of "pitch-coupling"

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Hi guys,

as title says. Which is your technique?

 

I have no problem when try to land manually after passed 1000' AGL, disconnect A/P and A/T and land safely enough.

 

But if I want to practice manually all the approach from IAF to FAF I have a lot of difficulties to keep the aircraft on correct glide path. I try to maintain the G/S adjusting the throttle and pitch manually, but most of the times I am to high on final and with an incorrect pitch configuration. The aircrat upon on final regains altitude and I have to make a go-around.

 

How do you perform your manual landing with this great aircraft?

 

Thanks in advance,

Ric

First, don't feel that you have to manually fly the full entire approach manually. In the real world, I usually go manually after slope capture. I like this because it minimize work for the other pilot and allows me to maintain situational awareness, especially during non precision approaches. But anyway, here are my techniques.

 

1. create standard configuration points along your approach. I fly the MD11 the same way I flew the DC10 real world. passing 10,000ft, out comes the slats. On intercept course, maneuvering flaps(28 for the MD11) and 180kts. At glide slope movement, gear down and flaps landing at a dot high before slope capture and slowing to approach speed.

 

2. In the DC10 i used 10% of gross weight plus 23 for target power for approach speed with flaps 35. As pschlute said, note percentage N1 required to hold approach speed and create your own curve. note gross weight. if you are at 400K and its taking 68% for approach speed at 35 flaps, then use: 10% of gross weight 40 + 28 = 68%. Then use this for any weight. This is imperative because once you have a good general power setting, you can set it and then just pitch to maintain glide path. Thrust movement disturbs pitch and causes PIO. This technique allows you to set and forget it. The jet will naturally want to track approach speed while on the slope with little tweaks of power here and there. This also works when it's turbulent.  

 

3. For non precision and visuals, try to keep a 300 to 1 profile and manage it like an ILS. During circling, use flaps 28 and the autopilot in heading select and ALT hold. Once ready to descend, kick off AP and AT and keep the 300 to 1 profile. Once turning final, go flaps landing.

 

4. The jet tends to have momentum in the flare. You pull the power from 30 to 50ft and start a pitch change 20 to 30ft pitching no higher 7.5 or else you will float.

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Good morning to you all,

 

At the risk of sounding flippant, when on approach/Short finals, I tend to look ahead and crash visually.

 

I woke up this morning on the right side of the bed I think. LOL

 

Regards to all

 

Tony Chilcott

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Great input, Rick. Fascinating post. A R/W MD-11/DC-1o perspective.

 

My favourite aircraft the PMDG MD-11. Once stabilised on the approach I usually as Peter suggested manually set the approach speed via the A/T and control the descent pitch down the glideslope as per the FD cross-hairs.

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But if I want to practice manually all the approach from IAF to FAF

 

Riccardo,

 

You might try doing autolands in the PMDG MD-11 and try to emulate that into your manual flying.  You will have much more success doing it that way than trying real world techniques.  Flying the MD-11 in the real world varies from company to company and involves a lot of simulator training.  The amount of automation I use varies depending on workload and how tired I am.  :smile:

 

blaustern

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I fly the MD11 the same way I flew the DC10 real world.

 

There are certainly some good techniques for handling a DC10/MD11 completely by hand...

 

Last week, the good folks from the 305th AMW at McGuire brought a KC10 (TEAM26) up for some evening approach practice at my local airport. While they did some instrument approaches, the vast majority of the 10 or so touch-and-goes were all closed pattern visual runs. Something I noted was that there was very little throttle play as they got in on short final - as one would expect. Also interesting, a friend provided the ADS-B tracks for the flight and it was impressive just how tight that big airplane stayed in the pattern.

 

No doubt they were using some standard config checkpoints as they went around the pattern - each approach was (at least to this ground based observer) spot on identical. The only one different was when they did a non-precision circle to land with the intent of executing the missed approach... nothing like three big GE's spooling up to full bore right over your head in the neighborhood... Now I want to go and fly the PMDG MD-11 again.  Alas, Win10 and P3D... .. .  .

 

Practice, practice, practice... just like the real guys do I guess!

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Wow, this thread is certainly throwing some very interesting observations, from R/W jocks and your KC-10.

 

Just out of interest, seeing that the KC-10 is still extensively used by the USAF, is it a much more safer aircraft to operate compared to the MD-11,as it has been documented that the MD-11 has had a history of handling issues?

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There are certainly some good techniques for handling a DC10/MD11 completely by hand...

 

Last week, the good folks from the 305th AMW at McGuire brought a KC10 (TEAM26) up for some evening approach practice at my local airport. While they did some instrument approaches, the vast majority of the 10 or so touch-and-goes were all closed pattern visual runs. Something I noted was that there was very little throttle play as they got in on short final - as one would expect. Also interesting, a friend provided the ADS-B tracks for the flight and it was impressive just how tight that big airplane stayed in the pattern.

 

No doubt they were using some standard config checkpoints as they went around the pattern - each approach was (at least to this ground based observer) spot on identical. The only one different was when they did a non-precision circle to land with the intent of executing the missed approach... nothing like three big GE's spooling up to full bore right over your head in the neighborhood... Now I want to go and fly the PMDG MD-11 again.  Alas, Win10 and P3D... .. .  .

 

Practice, practice, practice... just like the real guys do I guess!

Yeah man, I flew KC10s at McGuire myself. In fact, the techniques I gave above was KC10 techniques. The key to staying in the VFR pattern was configuration and 180kts. Basically on the go, you set flaps 22, trim in the green and stand the throttles up to the 12 o clock position. Once flaps are 22 and trim is in the green band, you set 100% on the N1s, though you had up to go around power. 100% made the plane more manageable in the initial climb. Passing current VREF, you hit the TOGA button and rotated up to 15 degrees. With 100% N1, 15 degrees was enough to keep the speed from surging. With go around power, you need more than 22 degrees(limit)  and she climbs too fast and too quick. Once the gear is up and past 800ft, you start your crosswind turn and intercept pattern altitude and 180kts. The crosswind turn is a continuous turn to downwind. When abeam the threshold, you drop the gear. When the threshold is 45 degrees off your shoulder, you start your continuous turn to final while descending about 500 to 800ft per minute. The goal is to be halfway down halfway around while adjusting for winds. At this point you are also slowing to approach speed. As you roll out on final, you roll flaps 35. On a 3 degree slope, pitch is 4.5 degrees and 3.0 flaps 50. 10% of gross weight plus 23 was the approach power for normal landing 35 flaps. Aimpoint was 1000ft down/ big captain bars. At the 100ft call, the threshold disappears from view. 10% of your gross weight was the flare height and power pull altitude. At 400K, you start flare and power pull at the 40ft call out. Flare was up to 6 to 8 degrees. 6 degrees was firmer and 8 degrees gave smoother touchdowns. Slower power pulls gave smoother landings with a little float. 1500 feet down the runway was the nominal touchdown point. As a technique, you keep the ILS dialed up as a reference during VFR pattern work. After a certain height, the glideslope warning is biased out and never heard unlike in flightsims where it warns unrealistically. Hmmm, remember it just like it was yesterday.

 

The DC10 is an awesome aircraft and still needs to be fully developed in flightsim. These planes had FMS systems for years and you won't find a DC10 with one in simulation. TEAM is a formation callsign so he departed in a flight. Where are you located? At times you would have some slop time between air refueling so we would drop into an airport for an hour of transition work. Our normal places to drop in for transition was KACY and KMDT. For each guy on board we would knock out some precision approaches, non precisions, missed approach and finally some VFR patterns before heading back to the RADAR pattern for a seat swap for the next guy. All in the name of getting everyone a proficiency sortie.  

Wow, this thread is certainly throwing some very interesting observations, from R/W jocks and your KC-10.

 

Just out of interest, seeing that the KC-10 is still extensively used by the USAF, is it a much more safer aircraft to operate compared to the MD-11,as it has been documented that the MD-11 has had a history of handling issues?

Yeah, the DC10/KC10 was safe after they worked out some issues. It has the perfect mix of automation and hand flying. If you encountered any problems or the systems did something strange, one click on each thumb and you were fully manual. The MD11 had a wing change which many claimed to have a weakened wing box. Too firm of a landing and a wing could snap off or experience a crack. In an effort to improve efficiency, the size of the tail section and controls were reduced. This along with a lengthened fuselage created stability issues. They had to add augmentation systems to create stability. This made the handling a little quirky since the system had to interpret your inputs and the airplanes responses to give you the control you requested. Add in some turbulent winds and things could get interesting. The DC10 had phenomenal crosswind ability due to its huge segmented rudder. The size reduction on the MD11 along with the augmentation again, made crosswinds challenging.    

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Once again, Rick, great post.What joy it is reading R/W stuff like this compared to some of the recent posts herein not related to this thread where it seems evidently clear, as simmers, that we cannot be bothered to read the product manual.

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Thanks a lot guys for your replies, very very intersting.

It's a pleasure to be "trained" from real DC10 pilots.

 

@Ric D: could you explain with an example the 2nd point applied for MD11? It's not so clear for me.

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TEAM is a formation callsign so he departed in a flight. Where are you located? At times you would have some slop time between air refueling so we would drop into an airport for an hour of transition work. Our normal places to drop in for transition was KACY and KMDT. For each guy on board we would knock out some precision approaches, non precisions, missed approach and finally some VFR patterns before heading back to the RADAR pattern for a seat swap for the next guy. All in the name of getting everyone a proficiency sortie.

 

Interesting - that would help to explain the ILS-Visual-Visual-Visual-ILS-Visual-Visual-Visual... cadence they had going on.

 

I'm extremely local to KPVD. Three or so years ago, the McGuire folks paid us some visits for daytime and nighttime circuits, but the locals got spooked by the "big military huge scary airplane" (*KC-10) flying "low over our houses" (*pattern work) and they essentially got them to stop... until last week, apparently.

 

If the ADS-B track is to be believed, they were returning from a longer flight out over the Atlantic and darted into our area for the work - spent a good hour or so here, and then headed home. When providing the enroute clearance, the local controller mistook KWRI to mean "Wright Patterson" and cleared them direct to Ohio after the Hampton VOR.

 

Great visit - I hope they come back around.

 

-Greg

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could you explain with an example the 2nd point applied for MD11? It's not so clear for me.

I think you are refering to a good power setting technique in the PMDG MD11. I went through and figured it for you. I was saying take 10 percent of the gross weight. I was at 400,000 pounds or 400K. 10 percent of 400K is 40K. So in this case it's 40. After some tests, I found that the MD11 requires 67% N1 on the GE engines to maintain an approach speed of 150kts  with flaps 35 on the ILS. So use 10 percent of your gross weight plus 27 for a good setting. It should be a curve and stay the same. It's just a technique to get you in the ball park. lets say I'm at 430K. Then 43 plus 27 =70% N1 to maintain approach speed on the slope. You can use this for most planes except certain heavies with increased speed at low weights. The 777 has increased approach speeds at lower weights for controlability  issues/air control. Give it a shot in the MD11 and let me know how well it works.

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4. The jet tends to have momentum in the flare. You pull the power from 30 to 50ft and start a pitch change 20 to 30ft pitching no higher 7.5 or else you will float.

 

Hi Rick,

 

I first flew the "10" in 1976.  As I moved up the aviation food chain the thing I missed most about the "10" was the FE.  I didn't realize the work load the FE takes off the pilot's until having to take up the slack myself.  :smile:

 

blaustern

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Interesting - that would help to explain the ILS-Visual-Visual-Visual-ILS-Visual-Visual-Visual... cadence they had going on.

yep, as the IP you may have two to three other guys on the jet who needs to log their beans(currency requirements) for the quarter/half. As the IP you steal an approach hear and there from the others to ensure you get your own requirements done. At a minimum, you have to shoot 3 instrument approaches, missed approach and a VFR traffic pattern in order to log a pro sortie. When available, you should also accomplish holding/procedure turn and a circling approach. So it gets busy and you get stuck in the right seat for a while during transition. You cycle everyone through to ensure each gets a proficiency sortie which we called a M10. When you saw them depart the VFR pattern, the next guy was swapping in starting with an instrument approach. You have to have an IP in the seat during all training flights.

 

 

 


but the locals got spooked by the "big military huge scary airplane" (*KC-10) flying "low over our houses" (*pattern work) and they essentially got them to stop

I've been kicked out of KACY in the evenings due to noise complaints. I loved KACY because you could get circles, PARs, TACAN, GPS or any type approach you wanted except an NDB. Keeps you from getting bored. The controllers are nice, and will tell you to depart after they get a few phone calls.

 

 

 


If the ADS-B track is to be believed, they were returning from a longer flight out over the Atlantic and darted into our area for the wor

They were probably coming off of refueling track 608 since it's right off your coast and on the way home.  We usually would drop into places that you could get stuff done instead of 60 minutes back at McGuire right when every other jet returns with the same idea filling up the pattern. I bet they were playing with the MAINEiacs. They always confused us with wright pat. If it's easy to get work done at KPVD, they'll be back.


Hi Rick,

 

I first flew the "10" in 1976.  As I moved up the aviation food chain the thing I missed most about the "10" was the FE.  I didn't realize the work load the FE takes off the pilot's until having to take up the slack myself.  :smile:

 

blaustern

Ha Ha, awesome. It was always nice having the FE to handle issues, share the workload and back you up. That third set of eyes made life easy.

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What fantastic posts from all three, Rick, Wilhelm and Greg. By far the best reading here in Avsim for ages.

 

Thank you.

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MD11 is a great aircaft to fly, it's a shame we won't fly a new PMDG version.

 

@Ric D: thanks so much for your clear explanation, the next approach I'll follow your step and report back. One thing....it's a normal habit to extend slat just passed 10000'?

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it's a normal habit to extend slat just passed 10000'?

 

The thing about it is that the plane doesn't like to slow down and go down. Clean you can only get about 1500 feet per minute below 10,000 and keep 250. Having the slats out creates a little more drag allowing more slowing capability. Normally you don't use lift devices as drag devices, but it works. They have a 270kt speed limit so 250 is not a problem. Our descent speed was .82 then 320. If you are behind, you would go speed brakes, slats below 270, trade slats for flaps 15 below 250 and flaps 22 below 220. So i normally set 1300 feet per minute at 13,000 to slow from 320 and reach 250 by 10,000. Drop slats and ride 250 until on approach course intercept. on intercept slow to 180 selecting 22/28 below 220. Should keep you consistently on pace. Too late and you won't be able to slow her on approach. Once too fast, she will carry that speed.

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@Rick D

 

You should drafted a Tutorial for the ubiquitous MD-11. This is by far better than what the Tutorial that comes with the aircraft covers. Once more, you floor us with such in-depth knowledge. A real insight into descent and approach control.

 

But then to give you credit, you have flown this bird in R/W. What better tutor.

 

Thanks.

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Rick Almeida is right! Rick D you have to write a tutorial for '11! With this techniue is all another way to fly this aircraft.

 

Another question....did you noted all our names report Ric and we all love this great airplane?

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Gentlemen,

Thank you so much for all of your fine comments. One thing to point out is that I have never flown the MD11 R/W. I was stating before that I fly the MD11 like I did the R/W DC10. Either way there isn't much difference. A few of my buddies went on to FEDEX and flew the MD11. They say it pretty much flys the same, just more power, weight and augmented control systems. Even the speeds are similar at same weights. I flew the KC-10A and DC-10-30. The techniques I gave you works very well with the MD11 and R/W MD11. I did attempt to join PMDGs test team when the MD11 was announced, but I was never accepted. Maybe I will design a good training flight for you guys that include some Proficiency items to get you familiar with the jet. I'll throw in good tips through out it.

 

Rick 

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@Rick D

 

Thanks for the clarifications, but as you say, there is not great deal of differences in the flight envelope of both aircraft,and moreover, you have exchanged views with your FedEx colleagues now on the MD-11, so that is valuable research.

 

Pity you did not get taken on my the PMDG test team, but they will have their own criteria.

 

Nevertheless, I for one very much look forward to a good training tutorial and proficiency stuff from you as I very much doubt as most of the PMDG MD-11 owners do so, that we will ever see an upgrade from the current model. So, as there is no other model forthcoming over the horizon, we may as well improve our techniques.

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A few of my buddies went on to FEDEX and flew the MD11. They say it pretty much flys the same, just more power, weight and augmented control systems. Even the speeds are similar at same weights

 

Rick,

 

The speeds are similar, except faster as it is normally heavier, at least in the freighter world.  The biggest difference is down at the bottom, where it is unforgiving and must be flown precisely.

 

To quote a former F/O on the MD-11 - "It's like my ex, fun to fly, but unforgiving." :smile:

 

blaustern

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I find the PMDG MD-11 the easiest of all their planes to land.  The 747 being a close second.  No offense to those who struggle.

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Hi guys, I tired to land completely manually following what Ric said. The first problem I found is weight and its percentage. I use Kg and not Pounds, so I think it's not possible to add simply a 10% to your landing weight, in my case was 189.000 kg, so 19+27=46% N1, it's a bit too low. Infact I tried to watch N1 value during and AUTOLAND and it was about 58-60%.

 

Disconnecting only AP and following the GS with AT on I found more difficulties, I couldn't maintain GS, most of the times tended to get above or under GS and so I applied stab trim to try center the GS.

 

With AP and AT off I found a bit more easy to land, but have to continuosly trim the aircraft when increase/decrease N1. Some times happen that aircraft enter in protection mode (LSAS?), N1 increase rapidly to 100% and more, and start climbing. The easy way to keep airctaft on GS path is to follow the FD, but is it correct to center it using stab trim or appling column to pitch down or up?

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