ms2

40$ is not 140$... About Carenado

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Avsim friends

I'm a little dispite by reading a lot of topics about Carenado aircrafts because I'm very happy with some of their products as the D228.

On avsim, it is a little borring song: " Carenado is less in programmation, Oh Ye..."  You are absolutely right, and else ? To repeat that again is less in interrest...

New readers, as I'm, prefert finding solutions to resolve some inperfect avionnics. Thanks, to the avsim "elite" that have that in minds.

 

In a little community of simmer-friends ( a part, pilots in the real life), I asked 3 questions.

1) How many Carenado Aircrafts have you in your fleet ? ... R: From 3 to nearly all addons.

2) In yours prefered aircrafts have you a Carenado aircraft ? ... R: except one, mostly is yes

3) are you ready to paid 100$ more for each Carenado addon to have a perfect avionics ? ... R: mostly, No

Is it representative of the simmer world ? I think probably that the silent majority is no so far of this community.

 

Perhaps that the level of programmation is less for all the addons from all editors based on the sim autopilot from fs or p3d.

Concern Carenado, I find the newer products beter, with the time... 

The best addons, I have as the majestic of a2a products, are based on external programmation out the sim... This explain the difference of price between a Carenado and a very well done pmdg product as the 747...

with a kind regard to the very interresting avsim communauty

Mark

ps: I propose to each one to make a self test with those 3 questions... ;-)

 

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Mark,

These questions are oft brought up in this forum.

The short answer to each question is "it depends on who you ask."

For some one who does not want nor require the complexity of a PMDG level aircraft, the answer is probably a resounding "YES"  for Carenado, The same answer applies to the value.

If however, you are asking someone who is a dyed in the wool PMDG pilot the answer is most likely to be "NO"  in all respondents. 

There is NEVER going to be any value given to the Carenado product for someone who is genuinely looking for a systems complex aircraft.  The Carenado product is most likely not even  going to be considered and the reverse also applies for the Carenado afficionados looking for a systems "lite" PMDG product.. 

There is a vast market out in Sim Land for both types of product, however and Carenado/PMDG sales and debate will verify that.

In essence, both products have enormous appeal to different users, so in reality, the questions are fairly pointless.

The raising of the issue periodically though, does have the benefit of having new users of flight simming and of these forums, current with the situation and may well save a lot of disappointment for the people who may consider purchasing the wrong product.

I also noted that you are, with only 34 posts, a fairly new user and I hope you are enjoying our forums immensely so far.

Cheers

Tony Chilcott 

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1) How many Carenado Aircrafts have you in your fleet ? ... 3 (and only models that are not available from any other developer for P3D)

2) In yours prefered aircrafts have you a Carenado aircraft ? ...  Yes, the C337. Again, the only model of its kind for P3D

3) are you ready to paid 100$ more for each Carenado addon to have a perfect avionics ? ... Yes, I would pay $100 for an A2A level C337 or C90. I have many aircraft that were $60-$100. These are the ones that do not get archived because I fly them consistently.

You are probably correct, most members of our community are casual hobbyists and there is no judgement from me about that. But, that is not my pleasure nor many other members of the community.

However, I will judge and criticize Carenado's business model for sucking the air out of the marketplace. They produce poor simulations at such a rate and the marketplace is so small, that it slakes the demand for a given aircraft model. How many simulation pilots actually simulate real world flight with real world weather, online ATC, fuel calcuations, etc? Actually very many, but they are not Carenado's target market.

No question, the demand for casual, low complexity, high visual quality models is as strong as it ever has been. Look at the acceptance of AeroFlyFS.

The developer community is starting to see differently however. You have companies like Milviz and JustFlight that are producing higher quality simulations of readily available models. These are selling well and demonstrates there is a differentiated market.

To each their own. Remember, in a public forum, you are likely to get public comments.

 

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14 minutes ago, Henry Street said:

However, I will judge and criticize Carenado's business model for sucking the air out of the marketplace. They produce poor simulations at such a rate and the marketplace is so small, that it slakes the demand for a given aircraft model.

 

That 100% hits the nail on the head. 

IMO Carenado/Alabeo do very nice one and two engine Cessnas and Pipers with, well, overseeable avionics and very nice flight dynamics. But they should stay in that market.

They should stay away from more complex Turboprops e.g. the King Air. Advertising realistic avionics is simply fooling customers, because you don`t get at all what they advertise.  

In a similar context, I was not happy to read about their upcoming Fokker 50 and Saab 340. IMO airplane addons are valuable, if they allow you to get close to simulate real world procedures. 

A screenshot simulation of a Turboprop is not valuable and additionally it might stop other developers doing them. 

Mike

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Dears, thanks for replies

I listen and appreciate the sights exposed.

There is a place in mine hangar for more complexe planes (as I have).

Mine future project is acquire the dc6 of pmdg, after have the airbus 320 or the dash 8/400 come back in mine fleet for v4.

Cheers

Marc

 

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A lower price is not an excuse for sloppy work and poor support. If a developer creates something simpler at a low price, and is honest about what it is, I'm fine with that, especially if their support is good. An example of this is Virtualcol. I have very many of their products, they are admittedly simpler in terms of avionics and systems, and they don't even have particularly sophisticated-looking virtual cockpits, but Virtualcol make no secret of this, it is what they produce, and should there be a problem with their product, they are helpful with support. That kind of product is not for everyone, but for those who want simpler stuff which get good performance in a flight sim which can struggle with performance, they have their merit.

This is in stark contrast to Carenado and Alabeo, where they put stuff out a prolific rate which has sloppy or lazy attributes, and leave things like that whilst moving on to producing more of the same instead of addressing the existing problems with things they have taken money for. And whether it is 40 Dollars or 140 Dollars, that is a very poor attitude for a business to have.

Disliking a company policy like that is nothing to do with an elitist attitude, it's to do with not liking poor customer service and products which are not up to scratch. Nobody with any sense will deny that Carenado and Alabeo products look great, but being sold a good looking product which has faults, which are often not rectified is not nice.

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6 minutes ago, Chock said:

Nobody with any sense will deny that Carenado and Alabeo products look great, but being sold a good looking product which has faults, which are often not rectified is not nice.

I agree that is not very nice and I hope (dream ?) that a part of money return shall be used by this team to correct their productions...

 

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Hi Folks,

We're not looking for perfection from Carenado - we're looking for basic functionality...

To charge an additional fee for an FMC based aircraft or to have fancy glass panels incapable of doing the most basic of navigation exercises such as a "Direct To" is absurd... Carenado has planes I do truly enjoy but I can't buy any with a glass panel or FMC based navigation...

It's a love hate relationship most people have with Carenado - their visuals are second to none - most people just wish they would have better quality control - stop making the same basic mistakes over and over again in every subsequent release  - and for me - with as many planes in their catalog that uses FMC's and Glass - invest in developing something that can perform the basic functionality of navigating an aircraft... It doesn't have to be perfect - simply enable us to actually use them...

Oh and start adding functional COWL FLAPS where appropriate...

: )

Regards,
Scott  

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I've seen a lot of valid criticism regarding Carenado over the years, but I don't believe Carenado really cares.  I don't recall ever seeing them respond to questions or criticisms on any forums.  If they are reading the forums, they don't publicly acknowledge it.

As long as their sales are good and the money keeps pouring in they'll continue to do business as usual despite the complaints and critiques.

Dave

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There usually flyable and look like the aircraft they are simulating...  I don't really think you can ask for more than that at the price they are charging.  I have three aircraft, the Do228, the Aero Commander and the Caravan, i wouldn't say i use them a great deal, but on the whole i am happy with them.

I guess if A2A did the Commander and the Caravan and Majestic did the Do228 i would probably delete the Carenado ones.

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They fill a niche for some of us simmers who are not as worried about avionics.  If you don't prefer hand flying and prefer to let a computer manage things then they are not for you.  It's a matter of preference.  By now potential buyers should know that their systems won't emulate real life perfectly, despite what they advertise.  There are other developers that come closer to that goal, albeit at a higher price sometimes.  I enjoy their aircraft simply for the effort put in on the visuals, and that they can take off, cruise and land close to the numbers.  But I don't buy everything that comes out.  The Premier One I did buy, but it disappoints with poor framerates compared to their other aircraft.  But I have the 525 which runs quite well, although it is slower in the flight levels.  I like their Tprop 850 and Malibu, haven't tried their B200 in P3d since it is not compatible with V4 yet.  Flying is fun depending on what you prefer.  You just have to know what to expect from a company that has delivered aircraft with the same style now for many years.

John

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53 minutes ago, WotanUK said:

I don't really think you can ask for more than that at the price they are charging. 

Ian,

I must respectfully disagree that the Carenado price point is correlated with quality of the simulation.

1) Look at Ant's Winjeel or T-28 series: $19.95 USD includes failure and maintenance modes, very accurate flight models and stunning visual quality.

2) Try to fly the $39.95 USD Carenado C90 GTX by the pilot's handbook. It might as well not have any engine gauges as there is no correlation between the real world aircraft and the simulation. The Collins avionics are at about 15% simulation compared to real world.. A side note, the engine levers cannot be pulled back into the beta range part of the throttle at all, even when beta range is engaged.

3) My beloved Carenado C337 and it's virtually unsimulated cowl flaps for $34.95 (cowl flap simulation is even built in the ESP/FSX/P3D sim engine, no special programming needed)

4) Compare the Garrett engine simulation  Flysimware C441 vs Carenado C441 both at $34.95. Heck compare the Carenado Garrett simulation to the old Aerosoft OV-10 Bronco Garrett simulation at $29.99.

My opinion is that Carenado's prices are actually high for what they produce. (relative to my use and expectations in the sim, as I, and others have pointed out in this discussion).

 

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12 minutes ago, Henry Street said:

Ian,

I must respectfully disagree that the Carenado price point is correlated with quality of the simulation.

My opinion is that Carenado's prices are actually high for what they produce. (relative to my use and expectations in the sim, as I, and others have pointed out in this discussion).

 

I am not saying they are first class products, but i don't find the issues as bad as people on here believe they are.  In my humble opinion support is pretty bad across the board for FS related products with some notable exceptions (i have always thought that Bryan from FS2Crew is very good, as is Dutch/Travis for FSCaptain). 

If given a choice between a Majestic Do228 or the Carenado one i would always pay more for the Majestic, but that choice doesn't exist.  The Do228 from Carenado is flyable and looks like the real thing, is it one of my favourite planes, nope; but i do use it.

The trouble is, high end developers, A2A, PMDG, Majestic, FSL etc... are unable to turn out planes at any great rate, so if you want a full hanger you might have to compromise and go for the lower end of the market. 

I think some developers are treated more harshly than others on here, Captain Sim and Carenado often seemingly get a rough ride.

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10 minutes ago, WotanUK said:

I am not saying they are first class products, but i don't find the issues as bad as people on here believe they are.

I understand and it is a result of your expectations and use of the sim. The issues are VERY bad if you expect the sim to fly remotely close to the real world equivalent.

 

10 minutes ago, WotanUK said:

The trouble is, high end developers, A2A, PMDG, Majestic, FSL etc... are unable to turn out planes at any great rate, so if you want a full hanger you might have to compromise and go for the lower end of the market. 

This is what I was addressing in my first post in this thread. I used to call this market impatience "Abacus buying syndrome"...have since changed the name to "Carenado buying syndrome". Again, no judgements about folks who prefer the simplified sim experience or even Carenado's practice of stoking it. However, I will continue to criticize Carenado for the effects on the larger community.

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22 minutes ago, Henry Street said:

This is what I was addressing in my first post in this thread. I used to call this market impatience "Abacus buying syndrome"...have since changed the name to "Carenado buying syndrome". Again, no judgements about folks who prefer the simplified sim experience or even Carenado's practice of stoking it. However, I will continue to criticize Carenado for the effects on the larger community.

I get what you are saying Henry, but in truth "impatience" implies that the aircraft would eventually be simulated by a high end developer; that is obviously untrue.  Take the Do228, which high end developer has that even on the radar...nobody.  People, including me, who purchased that aircraft were not impatient, we just wanted that aircraft sometime before the heat death of the universe, i would guess that is the motivation behind the majority of the purchases.

I will say Carenado occupy a rather odd part of the market, stuck somewhere between the low end and the middle end, i think that they are often judged at the middle end, unlike Abacus or Wilco (assuming they are still developing anything) who get judged at the low end

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14 minutes ago, WotanUK said:

Take the Do228, which high end developer has that even on the radar...nobody. 

A great truth, for sure, unfortunately. An iconic and important aircraft.

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9 hours ago, ms2 said:

Avsim friends

I'm a little dispite by reading a lot of topics about Carenado aircrafts because I'm very happy with some of their products as the D228.

On avsim, it is a little borring song: " Carenado is less in programmation, Oh Ye..."  You are absolutely right, and else ? To repeat that again is less in interrest...

New readers, as I'm, prefert finding solutions to resolve some inperfect avionnics. Thanks, to the avsim "elite" that have that in minds.

 

In a little community of simmer-friends ( a part, pilots in the real life), I asked 3 questions.

1) How many Carenado Aircrafts have you in your fleet ? ... R: From 3 to nearly all addons.

2) In yours prefered aircrafts have you a Carenado aircraft ? ... R: except one, mostly is yes

3) are you ready to paid 100$ more for each Carenado addon to have a perfect avionics ? ... R: mostly, No

Is it representative of the simmer world ? I think probably that the silent majority is no so far of this community.

 

Perhaps that the level of programmation is less for all the addons from all editors based on the sim autopilot from fs or p3d.

Concern Carenado, I find the newer products beter, with the time... 

The best addons, I have as the majestic of a2a products, are based on external programmation out the sim... This explain the difference of price between a Carenado and a very well done pmdg product as the 747...

with a kind regard to the very interresting avsim communauty

Mark

ps: I propose to each one to make a self test with those 3 questions... ;-)

 

Sorry to hurt your feels but Carenado aircraft are terrible. If you enjoy them good for you. I have been stung one to many times buying Carenado aircraft with terrible systems that never get patched properly. I have purchased a number of excellent aircraft from other developers for around $50 so don't spill that " it's $40 not $140." garbage.

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I think one problem is a lot of developers ignore the GA market, there's just not enough variety out there.  Many of the alternative GA aircraft have been out for several years with no major updates.  A lot of developers concentrate on jets or tprops, but not many piston aircraft of contemporary vintage.  If Orbx Lancair IV-P ever gets updated for P3dv4 I'll get that, fine aircraft, fills a niche not often filled in our hobby.

John

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9 minutes ago, Cactus521 said:

I think one problem is a lot of developers ignore the GA market, ther

Precisely the sense of mine topic, Perhaps some ones don't want always long hault in jet. Flying in vfr and appreciate the ground scenery in a beautifull 3d cockpit is real pleasure for me and a lot of casual (sic) simmers.

I accept the classification of middle level quality for Carenado but never as bad product. I have a lot of other addon's that I forget as bad product.

The problem is productions well done for fsx are no more diponible for p3dv4... And Carenado take the market before the other.

Some editors don't want rewrite in 64 bits their excellent addon's because most simmers prefert to stay in fsx.

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27 minutes ago, ms2 said:

Precisely the sense of mine topic, Perhaps some ones don't want always long hault in jet. Flying in vfr and appreciate the ground scenery in a beautifull 3d cockpit is real pleasure for me and a lot of casual (sic) simmers.

I accept the classification of middle level quality for Carenado but never as bad product. I have a lot of other addon's that I forget as bad product.

The problem is productions well done for fsx are no more diponible for p3dv4... And Carenado take the market before the other.

Some editors don't want rewrite in 64 bits their excellent addon's because most simmers prefert to stay in fsx.

P3d is gaining more traction as people upgrade and see the performance improvements over FSX, plus the bug fixes.  FSX has reached its limits although aircraft add-ons are still good for the sim, especially from some of the heavy iron makers like PMDG.  Photoreal scenery is the biggest improvement with FSX, although many prefer autogen over photoreal.  But photoreal scenery renders better in P3d, with no stutters or dynamic blurries to speak of.  However my first photoreal project in XP11 really stunned me when I saw the finished results, had no idea it would turn out so well.  OrthoXP is amazing and a gift to the Xplane community once you get over the install hurdles, since there's a couple of ways it can be installed.  I prefer my solution of putting python in the same folder as OrthoXP, having everything together there in one place.  Once I did that OrthoXP just kind of took off on its own, easy to use.  I am only doing two projects with it, one my completed Phoenix metro scenery, the other my in progress SF Bay area scenery.

John

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4 minutes ago, Cactus521 said:

...my first photoreal project in XP11 really stunned me...

John,

Another cool thing happening in XPlane is the Reality Expansion packs for Carenado and default aircraft. The Carenados in XPlane are already more functional than their ESP/FSX/P3D equivalents and the Reality Expansion packs take them to a study level sim.

Would love to see that kind of mod for Carenados in P3D.
 

 

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15 minutes ago, Henry Street said:

John,

Another cool thing happening in XPlane is the Reality Expansion packs for Carenado and default aircraft. The Carenados in XPlane are already more functional than their ESP/FSX/P3D equivalents and the Reality Expansion packs take them to a study level sim.

Would love to see that kind of mod for Carenados in P3D.
 

 

I haven't purchased any add-ons for Xplane since I mainly fly the 172 and from time to time the Cirrus.  I don't see any new Carenado aircraft on the horizon that I will purchase, my suite is pretty much complete in P3d since they allowed me to reinstall my FSX purchases there, saving me at least the $300 I originally invested for FSX.

John

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Must be said... Yes, customers of Carenado have access to v4 of their addons without spend a little money... This is one of the best news from the developers with the incomming of v4... 90% of Carenado evoluted on 64bits rapidely.*

A simple "thank you" from me to Carenado team... I sincerely think that they work very hard in the last days... Without ask a little penny....

Sure, I do not spit in mine  soup ;-))

Mark

* thank you to all developpers who do the same...

 

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2 minutes ago, ms2 said:

Cactus, it seem to be a bug in avsim post because I don't posted twice...

best regards

Mark

Sometimes happens.  BTW, what is your favorite Carenado aircraft?  Do you also buy Alabeo products?  I like the Mirage the most, followed by the TBM 850 that has near jet cruise speeds.  On youtube there's some good TBM 850 posts if you want to experience a flight from the pilot's perspective, you can get a good feel for how ATC works with GA aircraft in the flight levels.

John

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1 hour ago, Cactus521 said:

I haven't purchased any add-ons for Xplane since I mainly fly the 172

Just released is a Reality Expansion pack for the default 172. Likely I will be picking it up. The new 172 is beautiful in XPlane.

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