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Duncan Odgers

DXGI Prepar3d V4 Help!!

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4 hours ago, cj-ibbotson said:

For all the size of the market I recon that's why LM refuse to even acknowledge why the SIM is crashing. 

Like me, they know it was not caused by P3D so why should they respond?  Is LM the place where one goes to fix unresolved crashes across the Internet that were caused by Microsoft, Nvidia, the company that build the MB, the person who developed the BIOS for the MB, and/or the tweaking software developed by someone to tweak the GPU?  They are only interested in their software.  I have seen this a lot.  A person gets an StackHash/ntdll.dll crash while flying the PMDG747 and goes to PMDG and asks them to fix it.  It has nothing to do with PMDG but most likely the overclocking of his hardware, corrupted drivers, or outdated hardware drivers for his hardware which PMDG has absolutely no control over.  This is why I started the CTD Forum and developed the AVSIM CTD Guide.  One has to investigate the cause of the crash.  There are just too many differences in computer systems, game setups, and Windows installations.  Very rarely is there a crash caused directly by the flight simulation application.  It is almost always something external like an anti-virus program, corrupted drivers, out of date hardware drivers, or an incompatible add-on.  Probably the closest anyone can come to blaming the flight simulation application like P3D is the fact the application uses a lot of cpu and memory resources and the application and hardware have to be be perfectly installed and set up.  I'm sorry you cannot use a GPU tweaker to gain more performance from your very expensive GPU but you cannot.


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55 minutes ago, Jim Young said:

Like me, they know it was not caused by P3D so why should they respond?  Is LM the place where one goes to fix unresolved crashes across the Internet that were caused by Microsoft, Nvidia, the company that build the MB, the person who developed the BIOS for the MB, and/or the tweaking software developed by someone to tweak the GPU?  They are only interested in their software.  I have seen this a lot.  A person gets an StackHash/ntdll.dll crash while flying the PMDG747 and goes to PMDG and asks them to fix it.  It has nothing to do with PMDG but most likely the overclocking of his hardware, corrupted drivers, or outdated hardware drivers for his hardware which PMDG has absolutely no control over.  This is why I started the CTD Forum and developed the AVSIM CTD Guide.  One has to investigate the cause of the crash.  There are just too many differences in computer systems, game setups, and Windows installations.  Very rarely is there a crash caused directly by the flight simulation application.  It is almost always something external like an anti-virus program, corrupted drivers, out of date hardware drivers, or an incompatible add-on.  Probably the closest anyone can come to blaming the flight simulation application like P3D is the fact the application uses a lot of cpu and memory resources and the application and hardware have to be be perfectly installed and set up.  I'm sorry you cannot use a GPU tweaker to gain more performance from your very expensive GPU but you cannot.

This is just going round in circles and getting a little silly now.  Of course LM are not responsible for random crashes by Microsoft, nVidia etc but you are forgetting it is THEIR software that IS crashing, Photoshop and Autocad run fine on my system and they use a lot of resources, no other program, games or applications crash.  You also keep mentioning generic reasons for crashes about drivers, anti-virus or add-ons etc so how do you explain a brand new installation of Windows 10 (latest build), fully up to date, latest hardware drivers installed from the Asus (also did test OS installs letting Windows install drivers), no add ons, bare sim, default settings, default cpu clock speeds, up to date BIOS, default gpu settings still cause a DXGI crash?  Lockheed Martin's debugging guides insists you do all that yet they refused to even comment. Whilst it may not specifically be the sim itself *causing* the crash its the sim that *is* crashing.  Something within the ancient ESP code simply does not work well with certain modern hardware, yes many experience no issues but many are and no one wants to admit it.  

Given that I simply swapped my 1080ti with a 1080, same system, same OS environment, same hardware drivers, same Prepar3D installation yet it worked on default gpu clock speeds could suggest a hardware failure in my 1080ti or it could indicate Prepar3D simply cannot cope with some small thing my card is doing.  If 100s of users experience this what ratio of P3D customers does that make..1%?  I seriously doubt each and everyone owns a 'faulty' graphics card. 

I am unsure why you speak of saying I cannot use a gpu tweaker to gain performance of my expensive gpu, I have not used it for such with P3D I had meant I have done this to stress test on other demanding games or FutureMark benchmark tests without issue to ensure my card works fine.  I have to use Afterburner to REDUCE the Power Limit to 75% or I get these crashes.  I cannot run my 1080ti on Default with the sim.  I also ran my sons 1080 on default clock speeds to test and had meant I ramped up all the P3D settings to the max to stress it and whilst performance went down it didnt crash.  All this means is that the sim and my 1080ti simply are not compatible, Windows 10, its updates or GPU drivers are not the cause otherwise it would have crashed using either card as they didnt change.  

I have never in my life seen a program which is so fickle and I sometimes wonder why I waste so much time with it.  No other game or program requires forums so huge like Avsim for peoples problems and not forgetting the many many other forums out there - surely that is a hint about the lack of stability as a whole flight simulators are.

Anyway time for me to go do some work.

Chris

Edited by cj-ibbotson
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800driver.jpg

 

Chris Ibbotson

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1 hour ago, cj-ibbotson said:

but you are forgetting it is THEIR software that IS crashing

I explained that about with my comments that FS software the the hundreds of addons use a lot of resources, mainly the memory and CPU.  In any crash report or event viewer, it will tell you P3D crashed but it will not tell you P3D caused the crash.  They sometimes show a faulting module which provides only a clue and mostly, the faulting module is a system file, not anything to do with P3D or the addons.  P3D and the addons just happened to be running when the crash occurred.  To be sure, there is a slight possibility P3D caused the crash because we have seen where incompatible scenery and gauges installed in P3DV4 will cause a crash.  High settings, although rare, can cause a crash too as high settings throw even more resources on the memory and CPU.  P3D was installed with default settings which mean to me that any adjustments to the settings could cause a crash.  The settings are based on what P3D "saw" when you installed P3D in regards to hardware.  If you have a low powered system, the settings in P3D will be much lower than those who have very powerful systems.  This is what Microsoft had coded in FSX (in which P3D is based off of).  They wanted to be able to give a individual the proper settings based on their system to help them avoid issues with performance.  Whether this is still a factor in P3DV4 is unknown to me but I have a super powerful system at 5GHz and I don't even try to ramp up the settings.  I still get extremely crisp and clear images and I enjoy my flights.  They are more fun when you let your system "breathe" and not be tied up with providing a lot of resources.  I know you expect to be able to install P3DV4 and simply move all of your sliders to the max and expect no issues even with hundreds of add-ons.  That will never really happen in P3D for many, many years.  To be sure, you can run P3D with max sliders and a lot of addons but it will not always be enjoyable and you will probably suffer many unexplained crashes and freezes or a piece of hardware will not work properly because of the added requirements placed on it. 

If you want to prove that P3DV4 is unstable for some, you have done that and fully documented it.  But, again, if you run P3D normally, you will find it is not unstable and can run a lot of add-ons without any problems.  I know this is not what you want to hear but it be the facts.


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4 hours ago, Jim Young said:

f you want to prove that P3DV4 is unstable for some, you have done that and fully documented it.  But, again, if you run P3D normally, you will find it is not unstable and can run a lot of add-ons without any problems.  I know this is not what you want to hear but it be the facts.

Jim, 

Like myself, Chris has installed P3D on a fully virgin Windows set tup. I have formatted my disk(s), installed fresh version of Windows 10 and the problem persists, although less frequent than Chris as it appears, but definitely mostly during dusk/night.

It is true that P3D is capable of running a lot of add-ons without any problems, but it is also true that with plenty of add-ons things can go wrong - plenty of these on the web. What is more unusual is a virgin, default, copy showing instability for some. Whilst for some the common remedies are enough and justifiable on the basis of hardware or add-on causing instability, the case here is a completely different one - there are no possible interactions other than the P3D platform itself and the GPU.

Chris repeatedly mentioned his P3D is running on a recent/freshly installed Windows 10 OS; GPU is NOT tweaked and no other add-on installed on P3D. All very default.

 

@Chris, you mentioned you have tested with another 1080 card. Was it a one off test? I don't get the DXGI error on every flight. It is pretty random. Perhaps if you have flown longer with the 1080 card the problem would replicate...?

Edited by Miguel737NG
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9 hours ago, Jim Young said:

I explained that about with my comments that FS software the the hundreds of addons use a lot of resources, mainly the memory and CPU.  In any crash report or event viewer, it will tell you P3D crashed but it will not tell you P3D caused the crash.  They sometimes show a faulting module which provides only a clue and mostly, the faulting module is a system file, not anything to do with P3D or the addons.  P3D and the addons just happened to be running when the crash occurred.

Jim, please stop for a second. I tried mentioning this in the last page and you accused me of being untruthful and saying I knew that what I was saying was not correct. I write FS software add-ons and I've had them crash my simulator more than a few times - I know how this works. (And with respect, I would never accuse you of deliberately stating something you knew to be incorrect, but if I did I expect you would ban me post-haste. Please extend to me the same courtesy.)

First, if Prepar3D.exe (or FSX.exe) is terminated by Windows then the fault was either the executable or a DLL it loaded. End of story, no ifs, ands or buts. Is this code written by MS or LM? Not necessarily in the case of a DLL but it is certainly that process. Windows does NOT terminate a random process if it gets an error, it terminates the process that caused said error. It's the same with Linux and MacOS. This is Operating Systems 101.

Second, you stated earlier in this thread that it couldn't be an LM bug since everyone would encounter it. That's not correct either - many bugs need a specific combination of system, hardware, OS, and data to be triggered. L-M has fixed many bugs that I personally have never encountered (nor have a majority of P3D users) but that doesn't make them "not a bug in P3D". My software has had bugs triggered by specific simulator, OS and aircraft combos and many users never encountered them. That's what made them so hard to track down.

I've personally never encountered this issue, but given that the user reports indicate it only happens with P3D and it occurs with stock systems and configurations strongly suggests it's something in P3D's core DirectX/Graphics code, but it's very sensitive to hardware and/or OS. I have a lot of sympathy for L-M is this is doubtless very difficult to track down, but that doesn't make it any less their problem.

It's easy to blame the user's configuration - but to piggyback on another thread here there are plenty of times where it really is a software bug, just very, very obscure. I've had a bug where a .NET assembly depended on a specific MS Visual C++ runtime but the error message was rare and cryptic. Not too long ago FSDreamTeam broke GSX by inadvertently including a Windows API call that didn't exist prior to Windows 8 but spent a few days blaming anti-virus packages. They are hard, obscure bugs, but they remain bugs.

You have said in the past that you are defensive of L-M because you appreciate what they have done to move the Microsoft-based franchise forward. I too appreciate what they have done - most of us that have FSX (or FS9) still installed will fire it up from time to time and it is light years behind what P3Dv3 or P3Dv4 bring to the table. We are in L-M's debt, but we do them no favors when we improperly dismiss legitimate or plausible flaws in their software. The most trustworthy ally is one who is honest, not a sycophant or a cheerleader.

You and I disagree so much because I am a professional software author, in both the FS world as well as externally. I've lived and breathed this for over 30 years. My .NET apps have been used by thousands of people in millions of simulated flights. What I've done professionally has been used by more people than FS itself. I greatly respect your efforts in helping people here, but on certain core areas of software design your understanding of the way Windows apps work is incorrect and it does AVSIM's audience a disservice.

There's something here. The right approach (for everyone, not just you Jim) is to see if we can find the commonality between the cases to track it down. It's likely a bug in P3D or the NV drivers (less likely, unless there's a NV-provided P3D profile in them). Either way you will need L-M to get this fixed.

Cheers!

 

  • Like 3

Luke Kolin

I make simFDR, the most advanced flight data recorder for FSX, Prepar3D and X-Plane.

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Just an update from me.

The PNY1080 worked well enough. I had it butter smooth at one point. However the sim starting CTDing (non-DXGI errors) and at first I thought I fixed it with an unwanted chaseplane beta update but then it did it again. This time the same ntdll.dll error that drove me out of FSX:SE. It literally crashed on short final for no reason. So I literally deleted P3D on the spot, then deleted the drives/windows, then ripped the computers (2 computers in this work space) apart and listed everything on Ebay. Then I removed the desk and chair and sold them and bought a couch (these computers where in my living room) the next morning to replace the bear spot.

I'm a so tired of trouble shooing this piece of sh*t game and the headaches from this build. I'm going to get a pre-built i9-9900k/2080 rig in a little while and reinstall only P3D (hopefully v4.4 is out by then) and PMDG/Actlve Sky/Rex World Airports HD. Maybe ORBX if it doesn't look as great. The FSLabs A319/320 has caused nothing but problems, I think, over 2 platforms (FSX:SE and P3D) and the constant troubleshooting has made this hobby absolutely painful.

I literally rag quit an i7-8700k build and I pray the next time is better.

So the 1080 kinda fixed the DXGI error but the game still disappoints.

Edited by garymcginnis

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Think I fixed my own version of the problem. I made some changes and played around some.  No more  DXGI ERROR DEVICE HUNG Prepar3D v4 and I am now on my 4th flight crash free. Before I couldn't go an hour without it crashing. What I did was limit my GPU ( 1080TI ) power to 90% with MSI Afterburner. I also disabled hyper-threading in my Bios and I changed my Nvidia driver 391.35.  I am not sure if it was a combination of changes I made or one thing. Just happy I am able to fly again.  Cheers 

Edited by YukonPete

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I started having this out of nowhere. Previously I did have it many months ago in the very latest 3xx drivers, but I was also fiddling with video card overclock. But now it's a completely different beast, no card overclock, no NVidia Inspector, nothing else that I can recall of. Just "ended" a 1,5 hour flight and the **** error popped up initiating approach. When I take a look at Event Viewer later on the module informed is always the KERNELBASE.DLL.

It seems to me something inside P3D has changed recently that is making it very sensible to something, perhaps a combination between P3D and NVidia drivers, God knows. Maybe some kind of minor error that used to be caught and treated, but then something happened it just doesn't do it's job anymore. Only Lockheed Martin guys are able to debug this.


Best regards,

Wanthuyr Filho

Instagram: AeroTacto

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FYI, I uninstalled EVGA XOC and installed MSI Afterburner, still having the dreaded DXGI HUNG error.

 


Best regards,

Wanthuyr Filho

Instagram: AeroTacto

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13 hours ago, Wanthuyr Filho said:

FYI, I uninstalled EVGA XOC and installed MSI Afterburner, still having the dreaded DXGI HUNG error. 

 

I use the ASUS GPU TweakII OC program and have yet to get a crash.  I believe there's a bug in the other GPU OC programs.  It is definitely nothing to do with P3D or else everyone would be receiving this error.  It is something external.


Jim Young | AVSIM Online! - Simming's Premier Resource!

Member, AVSIM Board of Directors - Serving AVSIM since 2001

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Important other links: Basic FSX Configuration Guide | AVSIM CTD Guide | AVSIM Prepar3D Guide | Help with AVSIM Site | Signature Rules | Screen Shot Rule | AVSIM Terms of Service (ToS)

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On 1/19/2019 at 7:48 PM, Wanthuyr Filho said:

FYI, I uninstalled EVGA XOC and installed MSI Afterburner, still having the dreaded DXGI HUNG error.

 

There's an update to the MSI Afterburner - https://www.guru3d.com/files-details/msi-afterburner-beta-download.html


Jim Young | AVSIM Online! - Simming's Premier Resource!

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Is this issue still continuing, or is there a solution?

I ask that  because:
I had P3D v4.4 running reasonable after some tweaking, despite the old GTX 780.
And I could fly a bit around the airport.
Suddenly I have a CDT (Crash to Desktop), as soon as I click the menu and then one of the subitems.

I did do several uninstalls of a complete P3d including orbx, deleting everything under appdata etc.
In the end did Install 4.5.
Giving the exact error message.

 

------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Naam van toepassing met fout: Prepar3D.exe, versie: 4.5.12.30293, tijdstempel: 0x5cd47aad
Naam van module met fout: KERNELBASE.dll, versie: 10.0.18362.145, tijdstempel: 0xef881ca4
Uitzonderingscode: 0xc0020001
Foutmarge: 0x000000000003a839
Id van proces met fout: 0x3f30
Starttijd van toepassing met fout: 0x01d5247e7ce7d851
Pad naar toepassing met fout: D:\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4\Prepar3D.exe
Pad naar module met fout: C:\WINDOWS\System32\KERNELBASE.dll
Rapport-id: 5a1c39e2-99bf-4380-a87f-429d07cca5fd
Volledige pakketnaam met fout:
Relatieve toepassings-id van pakket met fout:
------------------------------------
------------------------------------

 

Thanks ahead,

RobB

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On 6/17/2019 at 12:39 PM, emisary said:

Is this issue still continuing, or is there a solution?

I ask that  because:
I had P3D v4.4 running reasonable after some tweaking, despite the old GTX 780.
And I could fly a bit around the airport.
Suddenly I have a CDT (Crash to Desktop), as soon as I click the menu and then one of the subitems.

I did do several uninstalls of a complete P3d including orbx, deleting everything under appdata etc.
In the end did Install 4.5.
Giving the exact error message.

 

------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Naam van toepassing met fout: Prepar3D.exe, versie: 4.5.12.30293, tijdstempel: 0x5cd47aad
Naam van module met fout: KERNELBASE.dll, versie: 10.0.18362.145, tijdstempel: 0xef881ca4
Uitzonderingscode: 0xc0020001
Foutmarge: 0x000000000003a839
Id van proces met fout: 0x3f30
Starttijd van toepassing met fout: 0x01d5247e7ce7d851
Pad naar toepassing met fout: D:\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4\Prepar3D.exe
Pad naar module met fout: C:\WINDOWS\System32\KERNELBASE.dll
Rapport-id: 5a1c39e2-99bf-4380-a87f-429d07cca5fd
Volledige pakketnaam met fout:
Relatieve toepassings-id van pakket met fout:
------------------------------------
------------------------------------

 

Thanks ahead,

RobB

I am back to having this DXGI crash and it just started after installing old not made for p3dv4 scenery. I would look at your scenery library and remove any new scenery you installed that is what I am in the process of doing. I have also changed nvidia profile inspector settings: turned off shadercache and changed the multidisplay performance to compatibility.

After p3dv4 release I was getting the DXGI crash on approach to FlyTampa Montreal and that was the first realization that this crash can be caused by scenery. When in the FT forums there was a message about removing a specific bgl file with the papi animation lights that fixed it.

Today I am doing a few flights after making the changes to see if I can fix it.

Edited by Boeing or not going

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On 7/16/2019 at 9:40 AM, Boeing or not going said:

I am back to having this DXGI crash and it just started after installing old not made for p3dv4 scenery. I would look at your scenery library and remove any new scenery you installed that is what I am in the process of doing. I have also changed nvidia profile inspector settings: turned off shadercache and changed the multidisplay performance to compatibility.

After p3dv4 release I was getting the DXGI crash on approach to FlyTampa Montreal and that was the first realization that this crash can be caused by scenery. When in the FT forums there was a message about removing a specific bgl file with the papi animation lights that fixed it.

Today I am doing a few flights after making the changes to see if I can fix it.

I'm bring this thread back because like a bad virus it affected me last night with a fresh OS/P3D v4.5 & driver install.

An MS link reads:

DXGI_ERROR_DEVICE_HUNG
0x887A0006
The application's device failed due to badly formed commands sent by the application. This is an design-time issue that should be investigated and fixed.

A pilot is always learning and I LOVE to learn.

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