Recommended Posts

Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

Posted (edited)

That document is good at describing the rules but does little to describe operational usage of CPDLC.

As a side note, these systems being implemented by PMDG fall under what’s called FANS (future air navigation system). For Boeing, it’s called FANS 1, for airbus, FANS A... collectively they are referred to as FANS 1/A.

FANS has developed to where it is thanks to Australia and its national airline with the first FANS capable aircraft certified in 1995. United Airlines, Air NZ and Cathay also participated in FANS development. The basic intent of FANS was to open up the skies and permit User Preferred Routing (UPR) etc. United Airlines suffered a little here as it didn’t operate much through participating FANS capable states. Incidentally, Australia’s national airline used this new capability to create a new airway over China saving in both time and fuel.

The rest is history - FANS is now an integral part of aviation and PMDG will now bring this technological evolution to us. Arguably, they are not the first to do it as CPDLC and ACARS have existed to varying degrees. They will be the first to bring it all together under a single umbrella. Uptake of these systems is as subjective as the decision whether to fly online or not.

This document will probably serve as a better study for the impatient as it applies to Boeing cpdlc capability

https://memarciniak.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/honeywell_cpdlc-procedures_ota_atche_final_report-3.docx

 

Edited by Copper.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Brian,

Well done! The document should be a useful addition for the developers.ūüėĄ

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will we have the capability to print ACARS messages to an actual printer?     Also, could we still use the Hoppie network with this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dva238 said:

Will we have the capability to print ACARS messages to an actual printer?

Could make something to do that if you really wanted to, I guess. Not sure why, though. It would be an awful waste of paper unless you're feeding a receipt printer...and even then, it's 2018. People still print things?

1 hour ago, dva238 said:

Also, could we still use the Hoppie network with this?ÔĽŅ

Why would we do that?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

and even then, it's 2018. People still print things?

I like to print out my flight plan and fill information by pen while I fly.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, joona_ said:

I like to print out my flight plan and fill information by pen while I fly.

Most airlines still print releases, however some are already transitioning to EFB releases.  That being said, printers are still heavily used by most if not all airlines throughout the flight. If the point is to be close to realism, this would be a nice capability to have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, joona_ said:

I like to print out my flight plan and fill information by pen while I fly.

tree killer lol

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, icaruss said:

Most airlines still print releases, however some are already transitioning to EFB releases.  That being said, printers are still heavily used by most if not all airlines throughout the flight. If the point is to be close to realism, this would be a nice capability to have.

Unless you plan on using a receipt printer....its not realistic at all. Stuff printed from acars is formatted in a way that fits on a nice, concise small piece of real estate. I could only chuckle at someone printing off acars stuff on a standard 8.5×11 sheet of paper. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, captainsazzman said:

tree killer lol

Dont worry, we got plenty of trees here in Finland. Besides the yearly growth is more than cuts. Trees rot in the forests (and in my understanding creates methane gas which is harmful for the atmosphere) because we cut too little. So Im actually helping the environment by printing flight plans :ph34r:

Edited by joona_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, ahsmatt7 said:

Unless you plan on using a receipt printer....its not realistic at all. Stuff printed from acars is formatted in a way that fits on¬†a nice, concise small piece of real estate. I could only chuckle at someone printing off acars stuff on a standardÔĽŅ 8.5√ó11 sheet of paper.¬†

Done daily, hundreds if not thousands of times, actually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, ahsmatt7 said:

Unless you plan on using a receipt printer....its not realistic at all. Stuff printed from acars is formatted in a way that fits on a nice, concise small piece of real estate. I could only chuckle at someone printing off acars stuff on a standard 8.5×11 sheet of paper. 

Not sure how familiar you are with 121 Ops, but some airlines use 8.5 x 11 and thousands of these are printed daily.  So you might chuckle quite a bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

Why would we do that?

Because from what I have read so far, your CPDLC isn't prepared to be supported by VATSIM yet, right?
Hoppie is fully integrated already via a plugin in the controller tool.

In overall, CPDLC (communication with ATC "only") will only be available with a subscription at PMDG, is this correct?
Or is this a "free" service available for 3rd party developers to integrate? And ACARS (gate, weather ...) will be only for subs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you find reading documents a bit dry, here's a little video of what it can do:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gents,

I think there's some crosstalk by a few of you about printing ACARS messages versus dispatch paperwork...I know a couple in the discussion are in 121 ops, too, so...

ACARS messages on 8.5x11? Last I checked, I haven't come across a plane with that kind of printer in it, and I've never seen ops print something out like that. The only real time you see ops do anything related to that is when funny messages from crews get a quick snap in insta or snapchat (not naming names, and of course operational messages are never shared...ever...ever, ever).

Dispatch paperwork? Yeah, sure.

2 hours ago, xTiMm_ said:

Because from what I have read so far, your CPDLC isn't prepared to be supported by VATSIM yet, right?
Hoppie is fully integrated already via a plugin in the controller tool.

Which controller tool? Euroscope? As far as I know, I'm not aware of any tool that has had wide acceptance anywhere. I never used the Hoppie option because it didn't integrate directly into the plane. As someone who used to do a ton of controlling on VATSIM, a lot of the other guys agreed with me that a lot of the issue is that none of the programs integrated directly into the plane's VC interfaces.

...and we literally announced this tool the other weekend. It's not like devs have even had a chance to consider supporting it. Part of the reason I set it up the way I set it up, though, was to make it easier for devs to integrate it: VA-side for ACARS, IVAO/VATSIM/PE for CPDLC - wherever.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is what I have found for EuroScope which adds a plugin to be used with Hoppie's CPDLC solution: https://github.com/pierr3/vSMR
This is what they mainly use in Germany/Europe online on VATSIM (if I am correct!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, xTiMm_ said:

This is what I have found for EuroScope which adds a plugin to be used with Hoppie's CPDLC solution: https://github.com/pierr3/vSMR
This is what they mainly use in Germany/Europe online on VATSIM (if I am correct!)

Yeah, I've never been enamored with either. ES has a bunch of cool functionality, but working with it was a bit of a pain in many regards. I definitely remember it being powerful, though...

Either way, our system would be a direct replacement, integrated into the decks of our, and - as has been announced by at least one other group - other developer aircraft as a VC-native function. No pop ups, no windowed programs running (for these functions anyway), and no real breaks in immersion.

Of course, the networks will have to pick it up somehow - either by an existing controller tool dev integrating it, or someone else - but so far, nothing has really had enough pilot buy in to make it worthwhile on a grander scale, and I think a lot of that has to do with that immersion factor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

True. A bit as a run against a wall. If no one is providing it, no one is using it. If no one is using it, why would they provide the "service". Its great that you are going to change that, tbh in a big wave as many of us are mainly flying with your products. This will change that game I hope a bit quicker.

Thanks for the explanation anyway!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

Gents,

I think there's some crosstalk by a few of you about printing ACARS messages versus dispatch paperwork...I know a couple in the discussion are in 121 ops, too, so...

ACARS messages on 8.5x11? Last I checked, I haven't come across a plane with that kind of printer in it, and I've never seen ops print something out like that. The only real time you see ops do anything related to that is when funny messages from crews get a quick snap in insta or snapchat (not naming names, and of course operational messages are never shared...ever...ever, ever).

Dispatch paperwork? Yeah, sure.

 

I’m a little confused. You’re surely aware that the boeing’s come with the a4 printer as standard? The width of the paper is 8.5 - granted, it doesn’t cut to length but it does print to the a4 size (crews can fold or tear the paper). The video link avantime supplied in this thread illustrates some of the point.

The a4 printer still prints most reports in a condensed form (hangover from the old printers like the one fitted to the qots2). Other reports can come out in expanded full 8.5/11 (a4) page layout.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, icaruss said:

Not sure how familiar you are with 121 Ops, but some airlines use 8.5 x 11 and thousands of these are printed daily.  So you might chuckle quite a bit.

About 5ish years in 121. Totally forgot a lot fo 737s use those huge printers. I stand corrected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, ahsmatt7 said:

About 5ish years in 121. Totally forgot a lot fo 737s use those huge printers. I stand corrected.

To prevent confusion - 737ng*, 737max, 777*, 787, 744*, 748 and heavy airbus’ have the a4 printers as standard.

*not all have the a4 printer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Copper. said:

I’m a little confused. You’re surely aware that the boeing’s come with the a4 printer as standard? The width of the paper is 8.5 - granted, it doesn’t cut to length but it does print to the a4 size (crews can fold or tear the paper). The video link avantime supplied in this thread illustrates some of the point.

The a4 printer still prints most reports in a condensed form (hangover from the old printers like the one fitted to the qots2). Other reports can come out in expanded full 8.5/11 (a4) page layout.

Right, but that's the point - much like my receipt printer point from earlier. You might waste some real estate laterally, but if we're firing off ACARS messages at a standard printer, it's not going to nearly just add lines and keep on ticking until you tear the roll. It's going to fire off a bunch of individual sheets of paper.

You'll note that I specifically referenced the 8.5x11 paper size...so did Matt. Rafael seemed to be referring to dispatch paperwork (again, referencing x11), as I'm not aware of any aircraft printer that fires off a paper size that is pre-cut along the vertical axis. I'm sure you can see my confusion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

Right, but that's the point - much like my receipt printer point from earlier. You might waste some real estate laterally, but if we're firing off ACARS messages at a standard printer, it's not going to nearly just add lines and keep on ticking until you tear the roll. It's going to fire off a bunch of individual sheets of paper.

You'll note that I specifically referenced the 8.5x11 paper size...so did Matt. Rafael seemed to be referring to dispatch paperwork (again, referencing x11), as I'm not aware of any aircraft printer that fires off a paper size that is pre-cut along the vertical axis. I'm sure you can see my confusion.

The confusion lay with me. Apologies to you Matt and Rafael, I thought we were talking airplane printers, not home printers. Topic drift alert. But yes, now I understand and I see how the home user could end up with considerable paper wastage, but if that’s what they want...! Haha.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now