greg100o

Jetways not animating in P3dV4

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Hello,

 

I recently bought P3dV4. I installed my FSDT airports. What I notice is that the jetways animate at the FSDT airports, but I have visited several default P3d airports and "park" my PMDG 737 NGX by using the P3d World menu and choosing a gate from the airport dropdown, but the jetway does not animate ie move to connect to the aircraft. The 737 appears to be exactly where one would expect it to be to use the jetway. I am using Ctrl+J which is the correct key.

 

I am guessing the default P3d airports jetways are supposed to be animated, correct? if so I wonder why they would not be working.

 

I do have have GSX latest version installed, but have not upgraded to GSX v2. I did not see anyone at the FSDT forum commenting that their default airport jetways were not working as a result of GSX being installed.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

Greg

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What command are you using to get the jetways to attach to your aircraft?

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It used to be ctrl J to get the jetways moving but since GSX v2, I have to use the GSX menu itself.

 

Stu

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3 hours ago, Bunchy said:

It used to be ctrl J to get the jetways moving but since GSX v2, I have to use the GSX menu itself.

Stu

I "suspect" you are correct ... if you update to the latest GSX1, you inherently get GSX2 "features" which controls / prohibits / negate futher use of "stock jetways" unless you buy GSX2 whereby you get SODE jetways for your aircraft, but not for AI docking as you could if you choose with standard SODE / stock jetways ( with a big unproven fps impact).

It's rumoured GSX3 will include a control on your FMS as to where you can fly plus as well the weather and encouragingly an AI controller ...

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Shouldn't it just be a matter of using the included Control Panel application and clicking on "Restore default Jetways" under the "Default Jetways Control" section? As I understand it that should enable you to restore the use of "Ctrl-J" at default airports as well as 3rd party free and payware airports that use BGL jetways, while retaining SODE for sceneries that use that method.

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43 minutes ago, jalbino59 said:

Shouldn't it just be a matter of using the included Control Panel application and clicking on "Restore default Jetways" under the "Default Jetways Control" section? As I understand it that should enable you to restore the use of "Ctrl-J" at default airports as well as 3rd party free and payware airports that use BGL jetways, while retaining SODE for sceneries that use that method.

Correct, It is just a matter of restoring the jetways to default. The issue/problem/blunder is, what is the point of adding a feature that takes us backwards or limits the realism. Should just leave SODE out if the SODE was going to be dead (to AI) like all default jetways in FS9 are. 

At this point I'm looking forward to FS2Crew's Ultimate Ground Crew X and dumping GSX altogether. The only truly useful feature in GSX for me is the pushback anymore. Plus the FSDT GSX forums are totally flooded with problems and confusion (not just growing pains in this case - GSX has become a perpetual alpha test and a test for many simmers patience). I have lost tons of respect for FSDT I'm sad to say, and it will take a lot to earn it back.

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4 hours ago, pracines said:

FSDT GSX forums are totally flooded with problems and confusion (not just growing pains in this case - GSX has become a perpetual alpha test and a test for many simmers patience). I have lost tons of respect for FSDT I'm sad to say, and it will take a lot to earn it back.

Definitely not the most intuitive, user friendly software. But it is pretty powerful once you understand it. It just takes quite a bit to come to terms with it.  I was quite frustrated with it at first, now just moderately fustrated. 

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, pracines said:

The only truly useful feature in GSX for me is the pushback anymore.

paul

spot on ...... though using that upsets SODE's user autodock feature which is a brilliant "idea".

Edited by vadriver
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6 hours ago, pracines said:

It is just a matter of restoring the jetways to default

but not at FSDT's own & which would be overwritten in the next update (forever) !

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51 minutes ago, vadriver said:

but not at FSDT's own & which would be overwritten in the next update (forever) !

That is good to know, I never tried restoring the default jetways. Wow.😵 

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Folks,

I appreciate the feedback and the solution to my inability to activate the jetways. I must add however that as a customer I am not pleased with FSDT. I am not interested in purchasing the version 2 upgrade. Last time I opened my simulator GSX indicated that there was an update to version 1 available, but and when I tried to update, I got the message that I needed to download and run the full installer.  That apparently installed Version 2 features which disabled my default jetways leading to this issue. No warning about this or "readme" that I could see. The issue  was further confused by my having just moved to P3d and not knowing what to expect with respect to jetway animation.

In addition the new in sim menu for GSX has an entry to activate the jetway, but when you choose it, a message that version 2 needs to be installed comes up, leading one to conclude that to operate jetways one must purchase v2, which according to this thread is incorrect.

It seems odd to include version 2 features in an update to version 1. There must be a reason, but I do not think it is clearly communicated to the customer. I think this whole situation could have been better handled or explained by FSDT.

 

Greg

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34 minutes ago, greg100o said:

It seems odd to include version 2 features in an update to version 1. There must be a reason, but I do not think it is clearly communicated to the customer. I think this whole situation could have been better handled or explained by FSDT.

They decided to combine both levels into one installer, (I prefer level to version to avoid confusing myself), giving users the option to unlock level 2 features for the additional fee.  

They always provided a fully unlocked version of GSX at no charge for use at their own airports and they've continued that with this iteration so there is really no change there.  

I imagine the reason they did this was to allow them to push updates via the live updater for either level at one time.

A more thorough explanation of the update process would have worked better and helped them to deflect some of the blow back they've caused on themselves.  Unfortunately these guys are a bit sensitive when it comes to accepting any constructive critique.

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Posted (edited)

And you only need to purchase level 2 if you want to use it’s features at non FSDT Airports.

Edited by UAL4life

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On 10/6/2018 at 5:52 PM, pracines said:

Correct, It is just a matter of restoring the jetways to default. The issue/problem/blunder is, what is the point of adding a feature that takes us backwards or limits the realism. Should just leave SODE out if the SODE was going to be dead (to AI) like all default jetways in FS9 are.

That's precisely the reason why we DO have the option to "RESTORE DEFAULT JETWAYS" in the GSX Control Panel, to offer a CHOICE. You decide what to do.

The automatically replaced SODE jetways will be static, is GSX Level 2 is not bought, unless you are on a Trial airport or an FSDT airport. This is normal. Jeways are replaced automatically during the installation, and the default are disabled, to prevent double jetways after install.

But the GSX Control Panel is there, so you can decide what do to:

- You want the old default jetways back, because you don't want to purchase GSX Level 2 ? You can do that, by restoring the default jetways in the Control Panel.

- You bought GSX Level 2, but want to decide *which* airport and which jetways you want to customize on 3rd party airports ? You can do that, by restoring the default jetways in the Control Panel

Regardless what you decide to do with default jetways, passengers will still work on 3rd party airports using SODE jetways, on FSDT airports using SODE jetways and on every parking in the open which use a Bus + Stairs.

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15 hours ago, greg100o said:

That apparently installed Version 2 features which disabled my default jetways leading to this issue. No warning about this or "readme" that I could see.

Well, there's a manual, which explains all of this, and how you can use the GSX Control Panel to restore default jetways, if you want to.

 

 

15 hours ago, greg100o said:

In addition the new in sim menu for GSX has an entry to activate the jetway, but when you choose it, a message that version 2 needs to be installed comes up, leading one to conclude that to operate jetways one must purchase v2, which according to this thread is incorrect.

The message doesn't say GSX Level 2 must be installed. It says it must be *activated*, which is of course normal. Having SODE jetways everywhere is one of the main feature of the Level 2 expansion, if they worked with no purchase, it would kind defeat the purpose of the expansion, making them effectively free. The alternative would have been making a time-limited Trial, but we always believed time-limited trials are too restrictive, so we only limit by airport.

Default jetways cannot be disabled selectively, because they are just one single library object: you either disable them all globally, or you don't. It wouldn't have been possible to show the new replaced SODE jetways only at some places, without disabling the default ones globally, because that's the only way to disable them.

That's why there's a GSX Control Panel to restore them.

 

15 hours ago, greg100o said:

It seems odd to include version 2 features in an update to version 1. There must be a reason, but I do not think it is clearly communicated to the customer. I think this whole situation could have been better handled or explained by FSDT.

Of course it has been explained, in the announcement thread we posted in June when GSX Level 2 was announced, which has been read so far by more than 32.000 people:

http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,17940.0.html

Quote

we are releasing it as an expansion, which means:

- The core GSX product will continue as it is, constantly updated for free in all its main features, so you won't have to pay for a new version, just to get rid of bugs of the old one...

- You are not being asked to pay for something you might not be interested right now.

- It's easier for us supporting it, because the code to maintain is only one, with just a different behavior depending if you bought the expansion or not so, this will give you the guaranteed of continued support for the whole GSX program.

 

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On 10/7/2018 at 12:06 AM, vadriver said:

but not at FSDT's own & which would be overwritten in the next update (forever) !

This doesn't have anything to do with GSX Level 2.

Before GSX Level 2 was released, we already updated some of our sceneries that were originally released with CTRL+J jetways, to SODE. And some of them were already made with SODE. Those were:

KIAH - originally released with default jetways, then updated to SODE
KLAS - originally released with default jetways, then updated to SODE

KCLT - released with SODE
KSDF - released with SODE
KMEM - released with SODE

These jetways also didn't worked on AI, but nobody complained, since they are clearly superior in every aspect for the airplane you are flying.

After GSX Level 2, we are just continuing to update the rest of our sceneries with SODE, nothing has changed here.

We are looking into making all jetways work for AI, but first we want to be sure every user will know that, normally, GSX Level 2 doesn't kill the frame rate.

It will be surely an *option* that will have to be enabled, and will be disabled by default.

 

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On 10/6/2018 at 5:52 PM, pracines said:

Plus the FSDT GSX forums are totally flooded with problems and confusion (not just growing pains in this case - GSX has become a perpetual alpha test and a test for many simmers patience). I have lost tons of respect for FSDT I'm sad to say, and it will take a lot to earn it back.

All reported features has been fixed already, when they required something to fix in our code. 

Most users having problems, are related to the customization of 3rd party jetways, which requires a bit of knowledge about how a scenery is made and the various ways 3rd party jetways are made (default, custom-default, static and modeled separately, static and modeled as part of the terminal, or made with SODE), because our MAIN design goal, was to allow users to customize 3rd party sceneries without touching any files belonging to the scenery. 

That's why, for example, we don't allow to customize a scenery which has been already made with SODE. That doesn't mean it "cannot" be done, because it can, but it requires altering files belonging to the original scenery, which we rightly don't want to touch.

Same for jetways on 3rd party sceneries which were modeled as part of the terminal. They cannot be excluded, easily. They CAN be excluded though, but it requires modifying the original scenery, either by removing files or, in some cases, editing the scenery at the deepest level, decompiling and compiling with ModelConverterX, which is something that CAN be done, by advanced users, but we surely cannot do that, if only for obvious copyright reasons, we can only suggest what to do in these cases.

The matter IS complex and, as of today, there's no other tool that lets you improve a scenery you bought in this way, without altering it and with an easy way to go back to the original situation.

And YOU don't *have* to do it. But, it's enough that, thanks to the availability of such editor, somebody else, who likes tweaking stuff, can do that for you and share the results. That was the main point of having an editor, to give users the maximum possible freedom.

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17 minutes ago, virtuali said:

We are looking into making all jetways work for AI,

Hi Umberto, 

Many thanks for this move, as you know my current line of work is mostly related to AI behaviour and enchantments so I am sure my entire customers base will appreciate this update when it happens, if you need any help testing it just let me know.

Kind Regards,
Simbol

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, virtuali said:

These jetways also didn't worked on AI, but nobody complained, since they are clearly superior in every aspect for the airplane you are flying.

....

We are looking into making all jetways work for AI, but first we want to be sure every user will know that, normally, GSX Level 2 doesn't kill the frame rate.


It will be surely an *option* that will have to be enabled, and will be disabled by default.

 

While I don't necessarily agree with the first statement (non AI compatible jetways), I'd like to know what's behind the position that enabling the jetways for AI would be a frame rate killer. I have many very complex add-on airports that host many many detailed jetways that dock to my AI with no frame rate impact, or at least one that is very low. I think this statement creates confusion among potential buyers, myself included.

Not sniping or criticizing, but genuinely interested. Is there something different in the way FSDT jetways are coded that would bog down a system if all were active? I can imagine in particular transparent and highly detailed jetways presenting this issue, but at existing add-ons such as KCLT I'm confused. There are several FSDT airports I would own today if not for the non-AI docking jetways. Thanks!

Edited by sddjd

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It's not that the non-user jetways would be SODE. It's the extra animations that GX2 provides that would affect performance. Im guessing that FSDT is trying to figure out how to use their customized SODE jetways at AI gates without any animations.

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On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 8:29 PM, virtuali said:

KIAH - originally released with default jetways, then updated to SODE
KLAS - originally released with default jetways, then updated to SODE

KCLT - released with SODE
KSDF - released with SODE
KMEM - released with SODE

I'm pleased to hear you have no plans for CYVR ...... 'tis brilliant as is.

there's a disappointing rumour you've changed KLAX.

but then I have the previous afcads for KLAS,  KLAX & CYVR to reinstall every update !

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8 hours ago, jabloomf1230 said:

how to use their customized SODE jetways at AI gates without any animations.

confused I am .... there are no animations apart from a docking AI jetway at all the FB/T2G/LVFR/PS scenery which use the "prescribed/standard .... etc" SODE install.

if you mean seeing passengers boarding AI, that's is ............!

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, sddjd said:

I'd like to know what's behind the position that enabling the jetways for AI would be a frame rate killer. I have many very complex add-on airports that host many many detailed jetways that dock to my AI with no frame rate impact, or at least one that is very low. 

Jetways are animated using the Bones system, same as people. 

A single animated SODE jetway has about 15 bones. An airport like JFK has 170 jetways so, if we tried to create all of them animated (to work on AI), we would cause the sim to deal with 2550 bones.

As a comparison, a GSX passenger has 22 bones (the maximum *FSX* allows, because we stayed within the FSX limit) so, adding 170 dynamic jetways to JFK would cause the same impact as 115 passengers boarding at the same time. Even at the "Insane" passenger density setting in GSX, you never see more than 30-40 passengers at the same time so, that would give you a rough estimate of JUST the impact of animated bones.

Someone might say "just use LOD". Of course we use it, the static jetway has many LOD's levels, which is why they are very light on fps. Adding LODs to the dynamic jetway surely can be done and, for the maximum efficiency, we would probably disable bones in the outermost LODs, but this will of course have the side effect of seeing the jetways "snapping" from parked to docked immediately, as soon you get close with the viewpoint. And, LODs increase the RAM required to load an object, which means FSX will probably crash.

Sure, we might try to detect what an AI is doing and, for example, display a dynamic jetway only when the AI is boarding/deboarding passengers but, again, the simulator doesn't help, because there's a simulated boarding/deboarding state for AI, but it only lasts 1 second so, it's not usable.

Sure, we might read the AI ETD, to display a dynamic jetway only during the last 15-20 minutes before departure but, again, the flightsim market is not helping us because, those using UT2, UT Live or another traffic product that generates AI programmatically, will not support this, since if the AI schedule is not coming from a standard Traffic.bgl file, there's no way to *know* when an AI will depart so, we lose a chance to optimize here. I once emailed Flight1, asking if there's a way for addons to read their schedule, but they never replied.

And, before someone asks, a docked jetway that doens't move IS still a dynamic jetway, because in order to have it docked to the airplane door, it must be a fully skinned object with bones, so that SODE can "resolve" it to the door.

That's just the graphic part of the problem, which is the first half.

The second half of the problem is sending animation commands. While default CTRL+J jetways are handled by the simulator itself, bypassing Simconnect, SODE jetways must use Simconnect to send animation commands to all active jetways. This must be made at the video frame rate so, assuming you are running at 30 fps, and considering a jetway is animated using 6 different variables, EACH jetway that moves requires 180 Simconnect commands *PER SECOND*. It's very difficult to estimate how many jetways might move at the same time, because it's highly dependent by the number of the AI, their schedule and the time of the day. At peak hour, I'd say it wouldn't be unusual to see maybe 2-3 jetways moving all at the same time.

This won't be a problem if the jetways were the only things requiring Simconnect commands, but that communication channel is shared by all your addons so, while a jetway is moving, perhaps Active Sky is creating weather, some GSX vehicles are moving too (users are asking us to allow more services to run at the same time, and we *are* looking into it, this would obviously increase the load on Simconnect), UT Live might be creating new airplanes and sending commands to them, everything you run in the sim might sending commands and, it's possible that sometimes some of these might be skipped, causing all sort of troubles like disappearing objects, frozen objects, wrong animations and, guess what, the blame would always go to the last addon installed, as in "I enabled GSX AI jetways, now Active Sky doesn't work anymore"...

That's the basic analysis of the problems we are facing, before someone might assume we haven't thought about it, which doesn't mean we won't try doing it anyway.

Edited by virtuali

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, vadriver said:

I'm pleased to hear you have no plans for CYVR ...... 'tis brilliant as is.

I only listed  sceneries that already had GSX-based SODE jetways ( = not working with AI ) which were released BEFORE GSX Level 2, because I was trying to make a point that, back then, nobody complained about this, and users were happy to get SODE to their older sceneries.

After GSX Level 2 came out, we also updated:

JFK
KLAX
CYVR
LSGG

 

Quote

there's a disappointing rumour you've changed KLAX.

I don't know what do you mean with "disappointing rumour" but yes, we UPGRADED KLAX to have:

- Double and triple good looking SODE jetways, in place of the single default jetways we had before

- Updated all the parking stands at the TBIT terminal, to their current status.

- Remade ALL the ground markings in ALL airport to comply with the much better GSX positioning standard, which is so much better than default, and allow every airplane to be parked in the correct position to make the jetways working even better. 

So yes, we "changed" KLAX, and it obviously works way better now, thanks to the power of the GSX Level 2 editor (which is easier to use FOR US too!) which of course works for FREE there.

Edited by virtuali

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Hi Umberto,

I appreciate this full explanation as it helps user to understand the challenge ahead to everyone, having said that the difficulty here is that you must understand how people is perceiving the situation:

Users that are either not using GSX at all or are sticking to GSX V1: They have have UTL, Traffict 360, Traffic Global or custom AI Models from free sources (AIG Forums, FAIB, FLAI, etc.) and they are currently operating with their AI docking to Jetway's with what they describe without any issues.

However I do have UTL, and when it launches the first time, you get FPS drops since all the Jetway's are docking to the AI, but after around 5 to 10 seconds the simulator settles down and further AI traffic being injected by UTL just connect to their gates.

So yes there are performance issues involved as you are explaining but they are not been seeing as a massive problem by most users as it seems it is more important to them to have the immersion experience of seeing their AI traffic around interacting nicely with the gates.

User install GSX V2 and the functionality to allow the AI to dock to the Jetway disappears.

So their frustration is understandable up to a certain level as the problem appeared without warnings, so the real question is can they close this gap? it is my understanding this happens because all the gates get replaced by the new GSX V2 gates, however end users could use the control panel to restore the airport default gates and then replace only certain gates? is this correct? this could allow users to receive nice GSX V2 ground services -only on their proffered gates- but the AI Jetway docking will continue operations.

Please correct me if I am wrong of course, I am just trying to find the compromise, I monitor many flight sim forums including the Alpha India Group and there is a sustancial amount of users resisting to purchase GSX V2 - even when they love the new passengers feature - due to this problem with the AI traffic and the Jetway docking system, so I am sure that if you find the correct solution more sales will come your way. 

All the best,
Simbol

 

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