Jason_Peters

Consistent NTDLL.DLL CTD's since update

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Guys, I'm looking for ideas here...  the 747-8 is now unflyable for me.  I NEVER had even one hiccup prior to the update.

I'm getting constant NTDLL.DLL crashes, but only with the 747-8.  I've been trying to complete a flight from EDDF to KIAD.  I've tried everything I can think of short of a complete uninstall/re-install.  In addition to multiple restarts, I've disabled GSX, attempted the Restart Coutal fix, updated graphics drivers, deleted shaders, etc....

Nothing works.  Any ideas?  Not new to Flt Sim or troubleshooting it, been in the hobby since pre FS4.  Help!

 

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Jason:  Open a support ticket with the <p3d>\PMDG\PMDG 747 QOTSII\747QOTSII_deb ug_log.txt file compressed into a zip and attached.  Will also be helpful if you have the compressed crash dump file in <user>\AppData\Local\CrashDumps.  Provide details on what the crash looks like (eg pauses or screen turns ghost white, message or not message, etc).

Another track to try is to use DDU (free display driver uninstaller tool) in Windows SAFE mode to remove all remnants of video drivers and then install new video driver.  This action ensures you are not mixing different versions of driver files, of which you cannot remove except in safe mode.

Finally, instead of disabling GSX or restarting couatl, I've found that killing couatl altogether eliminates certain CTD events that are related to remote areas like S Greenland, Hudson Bay, Labrador and W China.  However,  the EDDF KIAD tracks are normally far enough south to miss those trouble spots so this is last on my list.

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Yeah, support ticket is in... this dude is out of ideas.

I may try a complete un-install/re-install of the 747 entirely next.  The whole thing is odd as it was running without issue prior to the update...

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2 hours ago, Jason_Peters said:

Yeah, support ticket is in... this dude is out of ideas.

I may try a complete un-install/re-install of the 747 entirely next.  The whole thing is odd as it was running without issue prior to the update...

Hold off on reinstall unless support suggests that you try that.  Running without issue prior to update reveals a correlation but not cause, it still could be a video driver.  The problem is with the causation is that the PMDG dll never enters into the core of the operating system that is the ntdll.

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Jason,

The fact that you have **anything** on your machine that involves COUATL puts you at risk.  In thousands upon thousands of hours of CTD research last year, COUATL was implicated over and over again.  In fact, our efforts to add clarity to whether the CTDs being reported by three members of our beta team were caused by PMDG or *something else* added almost 70 days to the testing time for this most recent update.

Internally at PMDG, we forbid any products relying upon COUATL to be installed in our internal testing environment because it's failure rate is so high that statistically it creates problems for normal quality control processes in development.

The fact that regular users have created recommendations to "disable/re-enable" the darn thing is just one indication of the fact that problems exist that aren't being addressed.  Users just sit back and take the issue as "the cost of doing business" and I think this is most unfortunate.

When we begin to suspect that we have a problem like this in our software, it becomes an all-hands effort to cure it.  Sometimes it takes time for a problem to become statistically relevant- but if it does- we pounce.

Now- on to your particular issue:  Dan has given you some good advice.  If you are hitting a CTD in the area of greenland/nova scotia- it is something that is plaguing users the world over.  We tried to figure it out also- but were unable to.  It comes from someplace outside of our product- but precisely where is hard to pinpoint.

NTDLL.DLL crashes are often related to driver issues and/or issues related to overclocking.  Those might be areas to explore as well.

No matter what: Keep us posted.  You WILL solve this- and when you do we would like to hear what you found- especially if it turns out to be something related to the 747.  (Currently we aren't seeing any statistical activity that has us concerned something is out there...  but stay close by in case that changes.  We will always let you know if we are researching something like that.)

 

 

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On 1/6/2019 at 7:29 PM, downscc said:

... Finally, instead of disabling GSX or restarting couatl, I've found that killing couatl altogether ...

Since I'm one of the lucky ones who is allowed to experience that specific "Greenland-crash", I have killed Couatl, i assume you do that via task manager, since there is no other option?
But how can I start Couatl once again at the destination, to still enjoy some GSX facilities?
Simply starting Couatl.exe (even as an administrator) will not do the trick😕

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55 minutes ago, Headley said:

Since I'm one of the lucky ones who is allowed to experience that specific "Greenland-crash", I have killed Couatl, i assume you do that via task manager, since there is no other option?
But how can I start Couatl once again at the destination, to still enjoy some GSX facilities?
Simply starting Couatl.exe (even as an administrator) will not do the trick😕

Go into addons and restart couatl from there.

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4 minutes ago, ph-cxz said:

Go into addons and restart couatl from there.

Hmm, not that way🤨

If you kill Couatl via taskmanager you no longer have the entry's "Couatl Settings", "Couatl Live Update" and "GSX".

Only "Addon Manager..." but no way to restart Couatl from there ...

 

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Once you kill couatl.exe it is gone until you start a new simulator session.  It cannot be started on the fly.  One option is to save your flight while enroute, then restart the simulator and load the saved flight.

The other option is to abandon the use of any FSDT product, but I haven't gotten that far yet with my frustration with them. Pretty close tho.

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10 minutes ago, downscc said:

Once you kill couatl.exe it is gone until you start a new simulator session.  It cannot be started on the fly.  One option is to save your flight while enroute, then restart the simulator and load the saved flight.

The other option is to abandon the use of any FSDT product, but I haven't gotten that far yet with my frustration with them. Pretty close tho.

Dan, Thanks.

That was where is was afraid for.

But the pushback feature of GSX is so nice ... 😀

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5 minutes ago, Headley said:

Dan, Thanks.

That was where is was afraid for.

But the pushback feature of GSX is so nice ... 😀

I know, but you can kill couatl after your pushback.  The problem is when you are heading for a FSDT location.  They use couatl as part of their product authentication so if it not running the scenery will be missing.

I also like the SODE jetway placement feature in GSX L2 so what I end up doing is avoiding those areas of the earth where there are known problems.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, rsrandazzo said:

Jason,

The fact that you have **anything** on your machine that involves COUATL puts you at risk.  In thousands upon thousands of hours of CTD research last year, COUATL was implicated over and over again.  In fact, our efforts to add clarity to whether the CTDs being reported by three members of our beta team were caused by PMDG or *something else* added almost 70 days to the testing time for this most recent update.

Internally at PMDG, we forbid any products relying upon COUATL to be installed in our internal testing environment because it's failure rate is so high that statistically it creates problems for normal quality control processes in development.

The fact that regular users have created recommendations to "disable/re-enable" the darn thing is just one indication of the fact that problems exist that aren't being addressed.  Users just sit back and take the issue as "the cost of doing business" and I think this is most unfortunate.

When we begin to suspect that we have a problem like this in our software, it becomes an all-hands effort to cure it.  Sometimes it takes time for a problem to become statistically relevant- but if it does- we pounce.

Now- on to your particular issue:  Dan has given you some good advice.  If you are hitting a CTD in the area of greenland/nova scotia- it is something that is plaguing users the world over.  We tried to figure it out also- but were unable to.  It comes from someplace outside of our product- but precisely where is hard to pinpoint.

NTDLL.DLL crashes are often related to driver issues and/or issues related to overclocking.  Those might be areas to explore as well.

No matter what: Keep us posted.  You WILL solve this- and when you do we would like to hear what you found- especially if it turns out to be something related to the 747.  (Currently we aren't seeing any statistical activity that has us concerned something is out there...  but stay close by in case that changes.  We will always let you know if we are researching something like that.)

 

Robert,

First, let me say thank you for the personal reply!  I've been a PMDG customer since the FLY! 757 days, and will continue to support PMDG far into the future! Why? First class product, first class product support!  Second, to be clear I'm NOT blaming these crashes on PMDG.  This is complex software and things like this happen from time to time.  

I also agree that COUATL has huge problems, and limited (read non-existent) support from it's developer.  That said, these crashes are not specifically occuring in any of the known COUATL problem areas.  I merely went down that troubleshooting path as a precaution, and frankly for a lack of better ideas. 

My main concern is COUATL or not, the 747 and the sim was running without issue prior to the update.  I've begun working with the PMDG support staff by submitting a ticket and the initial speculation is I somehow ended up with a corrupt file following the update.  The plan is to perform a complete un-install and re-install of freshly downloaded files and see where we end up.  I was planning on getting to this tonight, but I've just returned from a long day training.  I'll likely tackle it tomorrow evening (AKA:  Soon TM ) instead... This Flight Engineer needs a break from airplane stuff...

More to follow... I do want my simulated 747 back.  It's a lot more reliable, a heck of a lot less stressful, and a bunch more fun than the one I argue with at work. 😉

 

Edited by Jason_Peters

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4 hours ago, Headley said:

how can I start Couatl once again at the destination, to still enjoy some GSX facilities?

What I did was create an "ENROUTE" scenario as I approach my FSDT destination.  Once saved I just restart P3D and load "ENROUTE".  It takes all of about a minute.  I also use FSUIPC backup for when I forget. 🙂

Grace and Peace,

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Just wanted to throw my hat into this rink. I was flying from Atlanta to Seoul the other day when I got a CTD, which is essentially unheard for me since updating to v4.4. (I do still use GSX.) It was an ntdll.dll CTD like this one. I wasn't flying over Greenland, but instead over northern Siberia on my way down towards Incheon. Perhaps it's a polar bug?

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6 hours ago, RISCfuture said:

Perhaps it's a polar bug?

I fly northern routes all the time, ENMG to UEE to PANC without any problems.  The only time I've had the NTDLL problem is when flying out of EDDF (using GSX for pushback) to KDFW.  Turning off GSX did not help for me.  Flying the same route out of BIKF or out of BGSF and I don't have the problem.  

Grace and Peace, 

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33 minutes ago, Bluestar said:

Turning off GSX did not help for me.

Turning off or disabling? To my knowledge, the dll must be prevented from even loading, so if you're turning it off after the sim loads, it won't do you much good.

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7 hours ago, RISCfuture said:

Perhaps it's a polar bug?

I get the ntdll thing every time I fly the 777 for longer than around 7hours, independant from the location but ONLY when going in western direction. After a lot if reading I don‘t think anymore that PMDG causes this in any way. However I‘m due to testing the couatl kill... I‘m so looking forward to the push back feature the FS2Crew ground addon is going to bring.

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Posted (edited)

Same issue here.

I am currently on DLH721 and the 747-8i crashed the second time during the flight. ☹️

No problems with 744 and 777 (p3dv4.4) or my FSL A319/320

ZBAA KM31D KM A596 TZH B458 TMR G343 NIXAL Y683 NIGOR P983 ABESA L158 BENAK A487 BABUK B236 LUKAS L166 LUNAG A713 NOGRI T872 OK R834 MF MF7T LAPUR FE5T AR FE2T BG L29 SUW T727 DENKO N858 SUBIX Z20 LOGDO Z117 ORTAG T177 ODIPI T157 KERAX KER07S EDDF

The latest crash was short of OSBAL @ airway A713 (ntdll.dll)

 

my setup: 
| CPU: Intel i7 7700K @ 4,8 GHz | COOLING: Corsair H115i @ SP140 | MB: ASUS Z170 Del. | GPU: ASUS 1080GTX A8G | AUDIO: Creative SB Z/ Teufel Concept E 450 Digital Superior Edition | RAM: 16 GB DDR4 2666 | SSD:Samsung 850 PRO 256/512 GB | Headset: Beyerdynamic MMX 300 (2nd Gen.) | MONITOR/TV:  ACER PREDATOR XB321HK/Panasonic TX-50DXW734 | OS: W10 PRO 64 bit Build: 1709 (16299.785) SIM: P3D v4.4.16.27077 |  NV-DRIVER: 398.36 WHQL | FSUIPC: 5.1.5.0 | WX: AS16 + ASCA | ENVIRONMENT: Envtex 1.1.6 | Envshade 1.0.5 | Envdir: 1.1.2.5 |  FTX Global  Basic, FTX LC EU/NA/SA  | FTX Vector | GSXv2 |  VC VIEW:ChasePlane 1.0.24 | CONTROLS: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog | RUDDER: MFG Crosswind |

Edited by PGBosak

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Guys, how many of you are using Immersion Manager from OldProp? The thing crashed first then the p3d right after it this afternoon. 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Johnny19 said:

Guys, how many of you are using Immersion Manager from OldProp? The thing crashed first then the p3d right after it this afternoon. 

I use it (except the lights options)  with 744 and 748.

But i can't remember crashes with 744 it is just the 748 and i had one single crash some months ago with 748 related to MS Internet explorer. (Maybe an EFB issue, i don't use the MS browser normally)

 

Edited by PGBosak

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, PGBosak said:

I use it for Contrails, Jet wash, Inlet Vortices, Cold Start, Engine Smoke, Drain Fumes with 744 and 748.

But i can't remember crashes with 744 it is just the 748 and i had one single crash some months ago with 748 related to MS Internet explorer. (Maybe an EFB issue, i don't use the MS browser normally)

 

I use all the effects to that the program provides (of course when they work). But i noticed p3d crashing right after immersion crashes, not only when using 747 but 737 and 777 also. 

Edited by Johnny19

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26 minutes ago, Johnny19 said:

I use all the effects to that the program provides (of course when they work). But i noticed p3d crashing right after immersion crashes, not only when using 747 but 737 and 777 also. 

Old Prop has said that something else triggers immersion manager to crash, not immersion manager itself. I close it down when not using the 747, just in case since the 737 and 777 don't use it yet. 

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1 hour ago, PGBosak said:

Same issue here.

I am currently on DLH721 and the 747-8i crashed the second time during the flight. ☹️

No problems with 744 and 777 (p3dv4.4) or my FSL A319/320

ZBAA KM31D KM A596 TZH B458 TMR G343 NIXAL Y683 NIGOR P983 ABESA L158 BENAK A487 BABUK B236 LUKAS L166 LUNAG A713 NOGRI T872 OK R834 MF MF7T LAPUR FE5T AR FE2T BG L29 SUW T727 DENKO N858 SUBIX Z20 LOGDO Z117 ORTAG T177 ODIPI T157 KERAX KER07S EDDF

The latest crash was short of OSBAL @ airway A713 (ntdll.dll)

 

my setup: 
| CPU: Intel i7 7700K @ 4,8 GHz | COOLING: Corsair H115i @ SP140 | MB: ASUS Z170 Del. | GPU: ASUS 1080GTX A8G | AUDIO: Creative SB Z/ Teufel Concept E 450 Digital Superior Edition | RAM: 16 GB DDR4 2666 | SSD:Samsung 850 PRO 256/512 GB | Headset: Beyerdynamic MMX 300 (2nd Gen.) | MONITOR/TV:  ACER PREDATOR XB321HK/Panasonic TX-50DXW734 | OS: W10 PRO 64 bit Build: 1709 (16299.785) SIM: P3D v4.4.16.27077 |  NV-DRIVER: 398.36 WHQL | FSUIPC: 5.1.5.0 | WX: AS16 + ASCA | ENVIRONMENT: Envtex 1.1.6 | Envshade 1.0.5 | Envdir: 1.1.2.5 |  FTX Global  Basic, FTX LC EU/NA/SA  | FTX Vector | GSXv2 |  VC VIEW:ChasePlane 1.0.24 | CONTROLS: Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog | RUDDER: MFG Crosswind |

3rd crash, same flight: now pointing to immersion manager:

Name der fehlerhaften Anwendung: Prepar3D.exe, Version: 4.4.16.27077, Zeitstempel: 0x5bfdbb35
Name des fehlerhaften Moduls: ntdll.dll, Version: 10.0.16299.785, Zeitstempel: 0x11105c69
Ausnahmecode: 0xc0000374
Fehleroffset: 0x00000000000f849b
ID des fehlerhaften Prozesses: 0x22f4
Startzeit der fehlerhaften Anwendung: 0x01d4a78a56a94253
Pfad der fehlerhaften Anwendung: E:\P3Dv4\Prepar3D.exe
Pfad des fehlerhaften Moduls: C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\ntdll.dll
Berichtskennung: b2fe4b5b-2c05-40a6-a992-c52a63e29272
Vollständiger Name des fehlerhaften Pakets: 
Anwendungs-ID, die relativ zum fehlerhaften Paket ist: 
 

Application: Immersion Manager.exe
Framework Version: v4.0.30319
Description: The process was terminated due to an unhandled exception.
Exception Info: System.AccessViolationException
   at <Module>.SimConnect_WeatherRequestInterpolatedObservation(Void*, UInt32, Single, Single, Single)
   at LockheedMartin.Prepar3D.SimConnect.SimConnect.WeatherRequestInterpolatedObservation(System.Enum, Single, Single, Single)
   at A.m.C(Int32)
   at A.V.A(System.Object, System.Timers.ElapsedEventArgs)
   at System.Timers.Timer.MyTimerCallback(System.Object)
   at System.Threading.ExecutionContext.RunInternal(System.Threading.ExecutionContext, System.Threading.ContextCallback, System.Object, Boolean)
   at System.Threading.ExecutionContext.Run(System.Threading.ExecutionContext, System.Threading.ContextCallback, System.Object, Boolean)
   at System.Threading.TimerQueueTimer.CallCallback()
   at System.Threading.TimerQueueTimer.Fire()
   at System.Threading.TimerQueue.FireNextTimers()

Name der fehlerhaften Anwendung: Immersion Manager.exe, Version: 1.0.18.0, Zeitstempel: 0x5c313cbe
Name des fehlerhaften Moduls: ntdll.dll, Version: 10.0.16299.785, Zeitstempel: 0x11105c69
Ausnahmecode: 0xc0000005
Fehleroffset: 0x000000000004a6fb
ID des fehlerhaften Prozesses: 0x211c
Startzeit der fehlerhaften Anwendung: 0x01d4a78a61d9b4dd
Pfad der fehlerhaften Anwendung: C:\Program Files (x86)\OldProp Solutions Inc\Immersion Manager\Immersion Manager.exe
Pfad des fehlerhaften Moduls: C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\ntdll.dll
Berichtskennung: 8f90c6a2-7cd9-40d8-9f18-a1069f11b3f4
Vollständiger Name des fehlerhaften Pakets: 
Anwendungs-ID, die relativ zum fehlerhaften Paket ist: 

 

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2 hours ago, Johnny19 said:

Guys, how many of you are using Immersion Manager from OldProp? The thing crashed first then the p3d right after it this afternoon. 

Doesn't apply to my crash, I don't currently run Immersion manager with the 747.

7 hours ago, Bluestar said:

I fly northern routes all the time, ENMG to UEE to PANC without any problems.  The only time I've had the NTDLL problem is when flying out of EDDF (using GSX for pushback) to KDFW.  Turning off GSX did not help for me.  Flying the same route out of BIKF or out of BGSF and I don't have the problem.  

Grace and Peace, 

But, a link to EDDF (Aerosoft Mega Airport) and GSX is entirely possible... Perhaps I'll see if it happens with a different departure location...

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