On ‎5‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 8:16 PM, DellyPilot said:

Just watched that, pretty good effort, if light on technical details. Not sure if anyone else has had this but loads of people have been asking me how to check what plane they are going on so they can book a different one 😂 RIP 737 MAX

It may be a little light on technical details but the opinions voiced by experienced pilots give this video considerable added weight.

Bill

Edited May 17, 20197 yr by scianoir

On 5/14/2019 at 3:05 PM, threegreen said:

I only know it as type rating, I would use type certification only for the (completed) process of certifying a new aircraft type. But you can probably use it to refer to a pilot's type rating too. I doubt authors of an actual book would get that wrong.

My understanding is that the Type Certification is for the Aircraft --- Type Rating is for a Pilot to be able to fly that plane.

A simulator that doesn't simulate a condition that could result in a catastrophic crash. Now that is unbelievable. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/17/business/boeing-737-max-simulators.html

2 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

A simulator that doesn't simulate a condition that could result in a catastrophic crash. Now that is unbelievable. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/17/business/boeing-737-max-simulators.html

Not so unbelievable. For example, until last year, industry sims did not even realistically simulate stalls. Only last year, after new requirements stemming from reaction to colgan and air france crashes did sims finally get software that supposedly realistically simulate stalled behavior. For 737 sims to not accurately simulate the difficulty of moving the manual trim wheel in an extreme out of trim setting, is entirely normal. These are just simulators, doing only as much or as little that a programmer programs in. No different than feelthere or pmdg or milviz. Just more expensive, with actual yokes, and hydraulic motion. The rest of your home experience is there as well, sim inaccuracies, crashes to desktop, lack of scenery areas, etc. With all the previous trim protections in the 737, and assumed pilot reactions, nobody ever thought of a plausible scenario where a 737 would get that far out of trim and never specified that kind of behavior to be programmed into the manual trim wheel. I’m sure they will try to add some kind of resistance mechanism after this. But it will take time.

As far as simulating mcas malfunctions similar to what happened with these two crashes, that should be a moot point. Since the software changes would make it impossible for this exact type of failure scenario to occur again.

1 hour ago, KevinAu said:

Not so unbelievable. For example, until last year, industry sims did not even realistically simulate stalls. Only last year, after new requirements stemming from reaction to colgan and air france crashes did sims finally get software that supposedly realistically simulate stalled behavior. For 737 sims to not accurately simulate the difficulty of moving the manual trim wheel in an extreme out of trim setting, is entirely normal. These are just simulators, doing only as much or as little that a programmer programs in. No different than feelthere or pmdg or milviz. Just more expensive, with actual yokes, and hydraulic motion. The rest of your home experience is there as well, sim inaccuracies, crashes to desktop, lack of scenery areas, etc. With all the previous trim protections in the 737, and assumed pilot reactions, nobody ever thought of a plausible scenario where a 737 would get that far out of trim and never specified that kind of behavior to be programmed into the manual trim wheel. I’m sure they will try to add some kind of resistance mechanism after this. But it will take time.

As far as simulating mcas malfunctions similar to what happened with these two crashes, that should be a moot point. Since the software changes would make it impossible for this exact type of failure scenario to occur again.

You are not correct. There is a videoon this thread, done by a real 737 Captain, that shows he and a copilot with full nose down trim in a 737 Sim, and they were unable to manually move the trim wheel in the sim. 

 

26 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

You are not correct. 

 

I think it was you yourself that posted an article about simulators not simulating the manual trim stiffness.

Edited May 18, 20197 yr by KevinAu

On 5/12/2019 at 9:44 PM, charliearon said:

This topic has now outlived its usefulness!  Key inserted and turned in the lock!

Don't know why, but the boss wants this debacle opened up again!  I have boxing gloves if anybody wants 'em!

Its not a debacle at all and I am delighted the boss intervened. If you read the whole thing again it tells a very interesting story and it isnt over yet.

Constructive debate, interesting points and careful analysis was finally replaced by a few posters with a persistant and repititve "lets blame badly trained foreign pilots who dont follow checklists borefest". Thats when many of us checked out. If we can keep things more factual it still has a lot to offer for many of us trying to keep upto speed with the latest.

In hindsight, I apoligise if people saw my comment as an attack but I am outraged by the disrespect shown to these 4 dead pilots and 100% stand by the general point I was making that the most dangerous pilot is the one who thinks it can't happen to them. Its a fair and relevant point even if I could have phrased it better. 😬

No need for boxing gloves, but how about removing posts that dont add anything to the debate or just repeat the same boring attacks on the pilots.

38 minutes ago, DellyPilot said:

Its not a debacle at all and I am delighted the boss intervened. If you read the whole thing again it tells a very interesting story and it isnt over yet.

Constructive debate, interesting points and careful analysis was finally replaced by a few posters with a persistant and repititve "lets blame badly trained foreign pilots who dont follow checklists borefest". Thats when many of us checked out. If we can keep things more factual it still has a lot to offer for many of us trying to keep upto speed with the latest.

In hindsight, I apoligise if people saw my comment as an attack but I am outraged by the disrespect shown to these 4 dead pilots and 100% stand by the general point I was making that the most dangerous pilot is the one who thinks it can't happen to them. Its a fair and relevant point even if I could have phrased it better. 😬

No need for boxing gloves, but how about removing posts that dont add anything to the debate or just repeat the same boring attacks on the pilots.

That they did not follow procedure is about as dry and factual as it gets. I agree it is not as popular a sentiment as it is to just pile on boeing.  Again, just because boeing is to blame for mcas, does not mean the pilots did not mishandle it either.  Everybody can be blamed. The manufacturer, the regulator, and the cockpit crew. Just because the crew is dead does not mean we white wash their actions and make verboten to call out any missteps of theirs. If we do that, we will never learn from this. My take away from what I saw here is that the difference between life and death can be but one reminder away. A reminder to not flip a switch back on. 150 people would still be alive if one of them just opened up a bulletin and saw the direction to not flip a switch.  As a pilot, I totally can see myself f-ing up the way they did. Any of us can f up like they did. That is why we need to point out their mistakes and learn from it and remind ourselves the importance of doing things the right way. The way we are trained. When an objectively written report is published, I guarantee you will see these  same unpopular notions in there that you so despise and ridicule me for saying.

3 hours ago, DellyPilot said:

Its not a debacle at all and I am delighted the boss intervened. If you read the whole thing again it tells a very interesting story and it isnt over yet.

Constructive debate, interesting points and careful analysis was finally replaced by a few posters with a persistant and repititve "lets blame badly trained foreign pilots who dont follow checklists borefest". Thats when many of us checked out. If we can keep things more factual it still has a lot to offer for many of us trying to keep upto speed with the latest.

In hindsight, I apoligise if people saw my comment as an attack but I am outraged by the disrespect shown to these 4 dead pilots and 100% stand by the general point I was making that the most dangerous pilot is the one who thinks it can't happen to them. Its a fair and relevant point even if I could have phrased it better. 😬

No need for boxing gloves, but how about removing posts that dont add anything to the debate or just repeat the same boring attacks on the pilots.

You hit the nail on the head. 

11 hours ago, DellyPilot said:

Constructive debate, interesting points and careful analysis was finally replaced by a few posters with a persistant and repititve "lets blame badly trained foreign pilots who dont follow checklists borefest".

disrespect shown to these 4 dead pilots

same boring attacks on the pilots.

I chimed in on this some pages before when it seemed I was put into the 'pilot blaming brigade' myself. I thought whether or not it's a bad thing to talk about the pilots had been settled, but perhaps it's not. I don't like that we are here again talking about this instead of continuing with this very enjoyable, factual discussion.

I, myself, still can't see any sign of disrespect or attacks on pilots or anyone for that matter (disregard the poster that brought a bit of turmoil in into this). In fact, I believe this whole talk about whether there is undue blame put onto the pilots is coming up because for some reason, it appears to be considered inappropriate whenever someones dares to talk about the pilots and each time someone does there is a right outcry. When I stated the fact that the F/O was low on experience (judged by his amount of 350 hours) my words got twisted and it was alleged that what I said or implied was that the F/O wasn't qualified to the job of a pilot. Complete misinterpretation of what I said.

No one here blamed the Lion Air pilots at all and basically all that was said about the Ethiopian crew is that they were informed about the MCAS mess and from the FDR data it seems they made mistakes too and could have (theoretically, if there were no human factors) averted the crash. This is a simple, logical and objective conclusion that every single official investigator would come to as well.

Don't misunderstand this post, it's not a rant or an attack but rather a plea in the best interest of this thread.

Please, can we stop jumping on each other whenever the role of the pilots comes up in the course of this discussion? I'd really like to leave this behind once and for all. This is most probably the most intriguing thread I ever participated in here on avsim. Let's keep it that way.

 

 

Some are not going to like this video  LOL

15 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

Some are not going to like this video  LOL

It's not about what anyone likes or doesn't like, Bob. The planes crashed, people died. We're here to discuss what happened and why and not to turn the matter into a fight. This kind of remark is exactly what has been causing tensions in this thread lately. I just asked people to relax a bit with their allegations of people disrespecting and attacking (!) the pilots and the very next post gets personal again.

We had this thread close to permanently being locked already. Apparently the sentiment of objectively and amicably debating is not shared by some here. We'll see how that pans out.

22 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

Some are not going to like this video  LOL

I liked it, the more info comes out the better until we find the whole truth and nothing but...

Cheers,

 

 

A very comprehensive article on the Max

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/boeing_two_deadly_crashes

2 hours ago, odourboy said:

A very comprehensive article on the Max

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/boeing_two_deadly_crashes

Friend of mine is a check pilot for one of the largest airlines in the US. He told me weeks ago, that what most likely happened was that MCAS caused a nose down trim together , with a slew of cockpit warnings. The pilots eventually disabled the electronic  trim by using the cutoff switches, and then as was mentioned in many discussions on this issue, they were unable to manually re-trim the aircraft due to the extreme forces required to do it manually. So as a last resort, with nothing else working, they turned the trim cutout switches back on again. so that they would at  least have assistance in trimming back to level flight. This probably worked briefly, until MCAS kicked in again ( which they knew nothing about) , and caused more nose down trim. Not enough altitude to use any other method, so a crash was the guaranteed result. Why this is so difficult for some to understand, is what confuses me.