33 minutes ago, aentwis said:

Remember though that MCAS works even when autopliot is off... you need to switch MCAS off, and such specific training was not in place at the time of the Lion Air crash, and possibly not enough training in the second crash... Haven't been following the full thread, but my understanding was that the MCAS information was not even in the manuals... please correct me if I am mistaken...

A

By the time of ethiopean’s crash, there was already a bulletin in their manuals outlining the system and telling them if it goes haywire, they needed to turn off the trim system and leave it off. But they instead, turned it back on after turning it off, causing the nosedive.

Edited May 10, 20197 yr by KevinAu

Let's try and keep the personal attacks to a minimum lest we end up with some "seat of the pants" moderation.

"click-click", "click-click".. (that's me just turning the kettle on for a cuppa and some relaxing tunes... or loading a couple of handguns... I can't remember  )

19 hours ago, 3Green said:

Here is the problem about "Understanding".  How can a pilot "understand" what some software guru programmed?..  You can't "understand".

Of course you can. That's exactly the point of completing a type rating. Learn about the aircraft you fly and its systems so you know and understand what's going on. MCAS is a piece of software, yes. You learn and understand what it does and how it works and what to do if things go belly up so you're prepared to deal with it.

 

6 hours ago, 3Green said:

Sadly, the pilot no longer flies the airplane, software flies it.

As a pilot once put it, "the automation is only as good as the pilot commanding it". If software is flying the plane all it does is easing workload and enforcing safety measures here and there to protect from pilot error but it's very much the pilots who command the plane.

On a side note, please keep the topic as is, free from personal attacks.

Edited May 10, 20197 yr by threegreen

On 5/10/2019 at 9:00 AM, KevinAu said:

You obviously have never been in an emergency situation as a pilot.

hmmm.... The "one up me game".
Assumptions often bite people in the "seat of your pants".
That statement comes across as arrogant, and I think, was used to intimidate and demean.
Pilots that intimidate and demean in the cockpit are individuals that are very dangerous.
It's like a doctor (GP) that claims he knows everything.
You can't know everything unless you specialize in that field.

KevinAU, do fly the 737max?  I never have,

The "one up me game" is how wars start, either individually or with other countries.
It's all about ego, or as I can call it, "chest thumping".
When one feels threatened, they often up the ante, usually with demeaning words, threats or sanctions.
As you put it, they start "babbling" and then all hell breaks loose.

People should show more respect towards the pilots that perished.
Individualists that claim they know everything, may one day have "Mr Karma" knocking at their cockpit door.
KevinAU, don't let "Mr Karma" in......
 

On 5/10/2019 at 3:09 PM, threegreen said:

Of course you can. That's exactly the point of completing a type rating. Learn about the aircraft you fly and its systems so you know and understand what's going on.

How can you learn and understand MCAS software, and "what's going on", if the aircraft pitches downward and kills you?  Reincarnation?

 

On 5/10/2019 at 3:09 PM, threegreen said:

As a pilot once put it, "the automation is only as good as the pilot commanding it"

That statement was valid, but not today.. I goes like this now:
"Automation is only as good as the person who codes the software".

Who commanded the aircraft to pitch downward and fly into the ground?

 

Well, I've arrived at my gate, time to disembark.... 
I know, don't let the cabin door hit me on the way out....

 

Update:  The better half cleaned my keyboard before I managed to read through the qrh procedures.
Looks like I failed that emergency situation.  The first officer saved my butt.  Work as a team, and don't think you know everything..... Because, one day, you may not..

Edited May 12, 20197 yr by 3Green

35 minutes ago, 3Green said:

How can you learn and understand MCAS software, and "what's going on", if the aircraft pitches downward and kills you?  Reincarnation?

 

That statement was valid, but not today.. I goes like this now:
"Automation is only as good as the person who codes the software".

Who commanded the aircraft to pitch downward and fly into the ground?

RJ

Seriously guy, we’ve been over this already. The ethiopean crew already had the manual update post lionair crash with a description and procedure. They should have been ready. The plane didn’t pitch overwhelmingly downward until they reengaged the trim system, against procedure.

Your kind of fatalism has no place in a cockpit. It’s a disservice to the passengers for a professional pilot to harbor that kind of attitude. We’re paid the big bucks to save the plane when the software tries to crash it. Not to throw up our hands and blame the manufacturer the moment the software tries to kill us. The ethiopean crew could have saved it. All they had to do was do as they were trained.

Your personal attacks on me are getting old. And the name is Kevin Au. The ‘u’ is nowhere capitalized.

Edited May 12, 20197 yr by KevinAu

Veay simple question.

KevinAU, do fly the 737? Yes or No?

Edited May 12, 20197 yr by 3Green

Just now, 3Green said:

Veay simple question.

KevinAU, do fly the 737max?

E190

Ok. First and last warning.

Personal attacks are unacceptable. Please keep on  topic without venturing into that level of arguing. So far we've had a pretty good discussion but this activity will get this thread locked pronto. 

2 minutes ago, KevinAu said:

E190

Thank you.

RJ

..... never saw that coming... (a ban being handed out I mean)

Seeing as the discussion is still ongoing at the moment and we have had more time to think things over from our chairs I have another question or two. Is there maximum speed where you cannot begin to deploy the spoilers?

The crew had let the 737 accelerate to high speed: why didn't they try and slow her down, to at least lessen the impact (a morbid way of putting it I know). Maybe they left the throttles alone because the thrust would help pitch the nose up under most circumstances.. 

I don't know how much time or altitude they had to play with without going back to research the data presented, and they had to deal with the general ongoing chaos, but could they not have reduced thrust, and applied some amount of spoiler? Then when the speed was under the max for slat & flap extension, start to deploy them.? The speed is under control, more lift is being generated, and more importantly would MCAS not have reset itself due to flap deployment?

 

Edited May 12, 20197 yr by HighBypass
clarity

I can’t think of a plane that has a max speed limitation for speed brake use. However, they can be inhibited at high thrust lever positions. That common feature is due to another crash, the american 757 at cali.

Flying a plane that has autothrottles, I can surmise why they probably did not pull the power back. It’s called autothrottle cripplage. Being used to never touching the throttles except when on the ground, it probably never crossed their minds that they could have put a hand on the thrust levers, click the disconnect button, and pull them back to a lower power setting.

Edited May 12, 20197 yr by KevinAu

Thanks Kevin. 

 

Just watched that, pretty good effort, if light on technical details. Not sure if anyone else has had this but loads of people have been asking me how to check what plane they are going on so they can book a different one 😂 RIP 737 MAX

This topic has now outlived its usefulness!  Key inserted and turned in the lock!

Don't know why, but the boss wants this debacle opened up again!  I have boxing gloves if anybody wants 'em!