It's ullocked!

3 hours ago, charliearon said:

It's ullocked!

Woe is me, to be a mod as I once was, I feel your pain!

John

15 hours ago, charliearon said:

This topic has now outlived its usefulness!  Key inserted and turned in the lock!

Don't know why, but the boss wants this debacle opened up again!  I have boxing gloves if anybody wants 'em!

Maybe almost 22,000 views has something to do with it. 

1 hour ago, Bobsk8 said:

Maybe almost 22,000 views has something to do with it. 

No, it has to do with not allowing a very few aggressive people with uninformed but strong opinions who resort to ad hominem personal attacks against other members to kill what has been largely an orderly and interesting discussion. 

We will, however, cull those posters from the herd if needed to facilitate continued reasoned debate.  We do not intend to permit the most obnoxious voices in the room to run everyone else off.

 

Apologies if this is common knowledge among most of you, but I recently discovered something interesting (well, to me anyway!) regarding FAA Type Certification shared between different versions of aircraft.

I purchased "The Story of The MD-11" by Guy Van Herbruggen & Charles Kennedy. Apparently the MD-11 and MD-10 (DC-10 retrofitted with two-person electronic cockpit) shared the same Type Cert. allowing crews to fly them interchangeably! Obviously there's no FBW attenuation (software) of differing handling characteristics, and abnormal procedures differ between the two.

This requires dedicated simulators, differences training and a QRH for the MD-10.

There is of course the extra costs of the above and time spent training to be factored in,which may have caused Boeing to lose out to Airbus, but one wonders if the MAX without MCAS really would have had to have had a different type cert?

One doesn't fly an MD-11 (or perhaps land?) like a MD-10 , yet both possess the same type certificate.....

Mind you legislation might have changed since the 1990s.

21 hours ago, HighBypass said:

but one wonders if the MAX without MCAS really would have had to have had a different type cert?

I assume you're referring to type ratings. If I recall correctly, no MAX-specific type rating would be needed without MCAS making it fly like the NG in said flight scenario, but additional training would be needed and that drives costs up. Boeing's position still is that MCAS is no stick pusher but an augmentation system, as the name says. Implementing an actual stick pusher would have required additional training as well. Although, technically, it is something like a stick pusher because it does push the nose down when close to a stall, just not by actually pushing the yoke forward and using elevator deflection but rather by trimming.

As for type certification, without MCAS the plane doesn't exhibit flight characteristics (in said scenario) as required to be certified by the FAA so no MCAS = no FAA certification. Which gives two reasons why MCAS exists.

Understood Niklas. The book specifically mentioned type certification (my emphasis) - perhaps the authors were mistaken and meant type rating?

29 minutes ago, HighBypass said:

Understood Niklas. The book specifically mentioned type certification (my emphasis) - perhaps the authors were mistaken and meant type rating?

I only know it as type rating, I would use type certification only for the (completed) process of certifying a new aircraft type. But you can probably use it to refer to a pilot's type rating too. I doubt authors of an actual book would get that wrong.

A strange one - I have found this article (from Boeing) which implies that an MD10 has it's own type certificate: https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2000-05-09-Boeing-MD-10-Receives-FAA-Certification-Delivers-To-FedEx

Anyhow, I shall not digress further & thanks for your input. 

Was talking to mate today who's quite high up in Jet2.  Interesting chat. 

Jet2 currently can't really use EGCC as a commercial alternate as parking is limited due to maxs being parked up. 

There's also 2 maxs parked up in GCTS/Tfs with covers on, one Norwegian and one tui.  Only summery  place with a fair but lot of parking around and good MCC coverage. 

I really think this max issue could be a nail in Norwegians coffin as they are having to wetlease from Olympus (a Greek outfit with Airbuses) and evelop. Funnily enough Jet2 looked at both Olympus and evelop and they both failed jet2s ACMI safety audit as the Olympus and evelop A/C are knackered.   Norwegian must be desperate. 

I know at Virgin the 787 engine issue has cost  millions and millions.  Its going to cost Norwegian and Tui millions too. 

Will boeing help with millions and millions its cost them, I doubt it.

 

Edited May 14, 20197 yr by tooting

8 hours ago, tooting said:

I really think this max issue could be a nail in Norwegians coffin

Yes I predict this could be the end for Norwegian as well. Shame as they had a lot of global partnerships handling routes around the world. They are a victim of all of this as well and you can't really sue Boeing for contributing towards a bankruptcy, they have a few contributing factors

Edited May 15, 20197 yr by Matthew Kane

4 hours ago, Matthew Kane said:

you can't really sue Boeing. 

One of the biggest employers in the USA no you can't sue then.  As I mentioned before but the mods keep deleting it, I would imagine the 🇪🇹 won't sue them either as their aid money will be cut.  Can you imagine a country that completely relies on on USA aid then causing 1000 US job redundancies and hit shareholders dividends. The world is not as fluffy as people are lead to believe. 

Edited May 15, 20197 yr by tooting

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/tui-loss-profit-results-brexit-737-max-grounding-travel-a8914351.html

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/15/us/boeing-737-max-audio-meeting-with-pilots/index.html

6 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/15/us/boeing-737-max-audio-meeting-with-pilots/index.html

"I don't know that understanding this system would have changed the outcome of this," the Boeing official says. "In a million miles you're going to maybe fly this airplane, and maybe once you're going to see this ever."

Wow talk about downplay