hornplayer

convince me to buy the 747 base for p3d4

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Posted (edited)

I have about $150.00 to buy a payware airplane. I am using P3DV4.X the latest version...I haven't purchased any PMDG aircraft for P3Dv4, but did purchase all the PMDG aircraft for FSX...At the moment, I am using other brands, but not totally satisfied with them...I am toying between a "new" airbus from another company or  the PMDG 747..."Queen of the sky" base for $136, I believe...

If someone can convince me why I should buy PMDG product over other brands in a couple of hours from now, I will purchase the PMDG. This might sound silly, but I need some "frank" opinions...

Edited by hornplayer
correct wording...

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Posted (edited)

I'd buy the iFly. I don't think that PMDG addons are so much better than alternatives that paying much more than twice as much for them is even remotely worth it. I have the NGX and the T7 base packs (bought the NGX twice!). But that's it, I'm done with PMDG unless they change their pricing philosophy. I don't mind paying a premium for superior addons but PMDG are no longer alone at the top of pile of the best aircraft developers. There are others. You can fly the Maddog for about $70 or the TFDI 717 for $60.

I think that since Prepar3D came on the scene PMDG decided to take that as an opportunity to gouge the word not allowed out of us with their "legal implications" blah blah blah, "Boeing licencing costs" blah blah blah, Liability blah, blah, blah.

Well the Horizon Q400 incident was almost 8 months ago and I don't see Majestic being named in any lawsuits. And correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the TFDi 717 is a Boeing licensed addon.

But the real give away that PMDG are gouging is the price of the NGX. It was released in august of 2011. That's eight and half years ago and its still a whopping $90. I'd buy XP11 and fly the Zibo.

I know that TFDi have sales, The Q400 can be got on sale. Don't know about the Leonardo. But PMDG never have and probable never will have a sale.

Despite the quality of their addons I don't think they are deserving of this communities support and as the addons of other developers emerge as being on par with PMDG but are priced reasonable, I think the chickens will come home to roost for PMDG.

So my suggestion is no don't buy it. buy the ifly 747!

Oh and forgot to mention the iFly 747 is $60 for basically the equivalent of the PMDG + expansion pack. So that's $60 v's $210

 

Edited by Guest

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Posted (edited)

@hornplayer: I may be reading between the lines, personally, I have both the PMDG 747 (+8 expansion) as well as the FSL 320 (+ 319 expansion). They're both excellent. They also, at least for me, serve different purposes.

The Airbuses fit well with my VA and offer many shorter hop opportunities. This naturally gives me more "hands-on" with the aircraft.

The PMDG QOTS is by definition a long haul aircraft. It doesn't fit into my VA and as such I only use it for cargo ops. (There are still many airports the -8 expansion won't fit into gates without mods to the AFCAD...not a problem for the base model.)

Night lighting for the FSL is better, in my opinion vs, the PMDG...others have created better effects with the FSL Spotlights add-on.

Again, for me, both aircraft are excellent, just very different. It will come down to personal choice.

 

EDIT:

Dave has raised some very valid points in his post above! I just wanted to add...after 30+ years of flight simulation, don't rush yourself into an "impulse buy"...you'll more than likely end up regretting it.

Edited by rmeier
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I appreciate both opinions...I have been on Sim's from day one...I am now 80 years old and still enjoy the hobby...I have also done some controlling on Vatsim...

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Get the iFly.  And with the savings, you could pick up another jet.

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U will save a few bucks and then u may find that product is not up to ur expectations, so my golden rule is 'get what is best available' 

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26 minutes ago, Beardyman said:

U will save a few bucks and then u may find that product is not up to ur expectations, so my golden rule is 'get what is best available' 

 

Exactly. Half the price and get half the product. 

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Posted (edited)

Some very refreshing attitudes in this thread, rather than the usual blind worship of PMDG. I agree with them, for $150 of a PMDG P3D QOTSII you could get TWO good addons from other developers.

Besides, the 747 has limited flights you can realistically do with it, mostly longhaul. Something like iFly 737NG,  CS 757 or Maddog is a lot more versatile (from 200 miles to 3500+ miles). And they're all still "study level" products. And cheaper.

Edited by ckyliu

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Since the iFly jets are sold through Flight1, you have 30 days to decide whether that scratches the itch.  If you have the PMDG jets in FSX, then you already know what to expect there, and have a good basis for comparison.

FWIW, I bought both the iFly 737, when it was the only one available, and then the PMDG 737NGX later, and ultimately ended up shelving the iFly version.

Agree with the comments above that the FSL Scarebus and the PMDG 747 are not just different add-ons, but massively different kinds of flying.  The 747 is hard to fit into many airports and flights are generally much longer (but don't have to be with acceleration or a repositioning program).  The good news is that nothing's stopping you from adding another option later...you're not marrying the things, after all!  😉

Another consideration is the ability to use what has become one of my favorite tools--one or more remote FMS CDUs running on an iPad or other tablet using RemoteCDU.  The PMDG jets all support that, and it's really nice having a touch-screen FMS display that doesn't require panning the big screen or a pop-up.  FSL's bus has a built-in web-server that does that, but I've found it to be pretty flaky and unreliable.  iFly add-ons don't have that option.

Regards

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Beardyman said:

U will save a few bucks and then u may find that product is not up to ur expectations, so my golden rule is 'get what is best available' 

 

6 hours ago, Raging Bull said:

Exactly. Half the price and get half the product. 

 

This garbage yet again?   Here, have a read from a real 747 pilot:

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/547479-i-fly-747-8-just-released/?do=findComment&comment=3948757

It's more like half the price, double the product since you get the -8 for free.

Edited by Greggy_D

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Thanks for the link, Greggy. That was a good read.

I have both: iFly and PMDG. The differences to me are mainly esthetics. I feel the PMDG looks better. I'm not hard-core enough to know the differences otherwise.

One other point as mentioned above: it is a really big aircraft. The size somewhat dictates what you do with it. You could get the iFly and then have enough left over to get an A2A single engine to do some GA flying. The Bonanza is really sweet.

Have fun!

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On 3/27/2019 at 8:59 AM, Avidean said:

Despite the quality of their addons I don't think they are deserving of this communities support and as the addons of other developers emerge as being on par with PMDG but are priced reasonable, I think the chickens will come home to roost for PMDG.

Who hurt you...?

Something I said?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, scandinavian13 said:

Who hurt you...?

Something I said?

Uh, Look, a little bit of ad hominem. That's when you know you are getting a little close to the bone! 😁

Well as the old refrain goes, "You can fool some of the people all the time, all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

Don't get me wrong PMDG birds are among the best but come on you knew they are way over priced. But you can get whatever price the market will bare. It's always been that way. But we live in an age when the sum of the people you can fool all of the time in a sizeable majority and if you're not in the business of making money your not in business. I guess the market segment you can't fool all of the time is to small for PMDG and other extremely profitable companies (Nvidia is another good example) to bother with.

But I have to call it when I see 'the emperor has no cloths'.

 

EDIT: Since you asked i think it was paying full price for the NGX twice that woke me! I know that left a nasty taste in a lot of simmers mouths. I can just imagine how those who are switching over form FSX now feel if they fly all three PMDG Boeing. I'd be inclined to say for many that is the sole reason they haven't switched over and it would be better for the community at large if they did. So that obstacle is greatly thanks to PMDG's pricing philosophy too. 😉

Edited by Guest

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6 minutes ago, Avidean said:

Uh, Look, a little bit of ad hominem. That's when you know you are getting a little close to the bone! 😁

Not quite. A bit of ad hom, I won't deny that, but the way the initial post was written, it seems less like a rational and reasoned, fact-based approach, and more of a hit piece.

I mean, really...this is all one needs to see:

On 3/27/2019 at 8:59 AM, Avidean said:

I think that since Prepar3D came on the scene PMDG decided to take that as an opportunity to gouge the word not allowed out of us with their "legal implications" blah blah blah, "Boeing licencing costs" blah blah blah, Liability blah, blah, blah.

That's an argument from (and to) emotion, and only really serves to undermine any actual point.

9 minutes ago, Avidean said:

But I have to call it when I see 'the emperor has no cloths'.

Clothes*

...but I'm not sure how this metaphor fits.

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Posted (edited)

Kyle, look I know it's your job to defend and promote PMDG. If the best defense you are making on behalf of PMDG against my point is to correct my spelling mistake, then I think that will look bad to an impartial jury. I'll explain the metaphor. The product is clothed in a value for money narrative. The product has no clothes i.e. no value for money.

It is a fact that the PMDG 747 + expansion pack is $210 and a fact that the ifly 747 which is about equivalent and is $60.

It is a fact that the posts linked above to comments made by a real life 747 captain rated both PMDG and the iFly more or less on a par regarding their fidelity to the real thing.

The OP asked a question and I believe he will be happy with the responses he got. I gave him my opinion. As did others. It's not a hit piece. I have several study aircraft including the NGX and PMDG777. Enough to keep me busy for years. That's why I have not purchased a 747. Frankly, if my decision was based on preference alone I would probably buy the PMDG 747. But I am not going too. Purely, for novelty at some point sooner than I need another study level aircraft I'll probably buy one. And as things stand right now it will be the iFly. It will likely be an impulse buy as a result of it being on sale! Hint.

Simply based on price for the average simmer i.e. most, the iFly is a no brainer. IMHO I am sure the PMDG 747 is fantastic and I know the 737 and 777 are fantastic but they are way over priced. There are plenty of far better informed simmers than me that say the iFly is just as fantastic.

No offense intended but I think PMDG are engaged in the practice gouging.

Edited by Guest

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33 minutes ago, Avidean said:

I need another study level aircraft I'll probably buy one.

Have you considered going over to Hardy's website and buying Precision Simulator 10?

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16 hours ago, Avidean said:

Kyle, look I know it's your job to defend and promote PMDG. If the best defense you are making on behalf of PMDG against my point is to correct my spelling mistake, then I think that will look bad to an impartial jury. I'll explain the metaphor. The product is clothed in a value for money narrative. The product has no clothes i.e. no value for money.

It really isn't my job. I'm really (clearly) not the best PR person. I just jumped in to make a joke. It seems to flown over heads, though, so I'll explain:

Your posts have all been filled with a bunch of arguments to emotion. It's a logical fallacy that attempts to play on the reader's emotions to win them over (namely an appeal to ridicule and another to repugnance, but also faulty generalizations in the realms of the "average simmer," and false authority in the realm of understanding the complexities of running a business, in which one example contains a formal fallacy of affirming the consequent). In order to draw attention to this, I jokingly used my own logical fallacy: ad hom. The first shot was a joking ad hom, and the second one was an admission that the first post was a joke (and an awful argument - I literally admitted that it was ad hom, though I did point out the logical fallacy of the appeal to emotion in this second post). I then attempted to make the joke a little clearer by being a pedant (doubling down on the previously acknowledged ad hom).

 

 

 

You go to the corner store and you see M&Ms and another package right next to it of Generic Candy-Coated Chocolate Oblate Spheroids. The former are more expensive, but are largely the same: chocolate oblate spheroids that have a dyed hard-panned candy shell. What economic principles are in play here? Is the discrepancy in cost parity a valid argument that the demand curve has been misread by Mars? If so, why is the price so inelastic, and why are M&Ms still a market leading product?

Econ is fun. It's a wonder companies actually spend any amount of time studying it in order to keep doing that whole...business...thing...

 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks!😁 I needed that!😜 Have a nice day. Don't forget to put your anorak on if your going outside.

BTW, There is a difference between logic and reason.

Just so you know I intend to give you the last word. So don't expect a reply to your next post.🤐

Edited by Guest

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7 minutes ago, Avidean said:

Thanks!😁 I needed that!😜 Have a nice day. Don't forget to put your anorak on if your going outside.

I mean...case in point...

The meat of the discussion finally gets laid on the table and all the sudden the called bluff ends up in a folded hand.

7 minutes ago, Avidean said:

BTW, There is a difference between logic and reason.

This is true. You need reason to apply logic successfully. Interestingly, the very existence of this discussion is a direct result of a verifiable track record of successes through reason.

Logic is understanding "buy low, sell high." Reason is understanding that you're probably better off listening to the likes of Buffett and Dalio instead of telling them how the concept is best put into practice.

9 minutes ago, Avidean said:

Just so you know I intend to give you the last word. So don't expect a reply to your next post.🤐

Thank you.

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On 3/27/2019 at 12:59 PM, Avidean said:

And correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the TFDi 717 is a Boeing licensed addon.

A lot of addons have that notice. All it means is Boeing have agreed to let the developer use their name and logo. It says nothing about the quality of the sim. Not knocking the TFDi 717 at all, btw, it’s a very high quality product. “Boeing licensed product” is very different to the data agreement PMDG have with Boeing. I expect the cost of that data is a big part of the price difference between the likes of iFly and PMDG. Most users probably won’t notice the difference between the iFly simulation and PMDG’s. In which case there’s no reason to pay extra. However others like the authenticity of PMDG as well as the official manuals you get. As the saying goes, “you pays your money and you takes your choice.”

I’ve never regretted a PMDG purchase. Certainly not the 747v3 which is a sublime simulation. I use it mostly for cargo flights which gives me a wide choice of routes, by no means all of them long haul. 

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All the responses have been enlightening. I downloaded a "brand" product 737 tested for several days and found to be inaccurate on many details such as simple things like changing barometer settings, radio frequency settings, and on one approach to KSEA, the aircraft speed would switch from 45 knots back to 350knots in a matter of 2 seconds...On a 30 day trial period, I have requested a refund, and received that refund to purchase the PMDG 737 (800-900) model for P3DV.x....I still use FSX on drive D with all of the PMDG's and other brand  aircraft. I have a very high end computer which will handled all the scenery and "add-ones".

I am requesting the admin to close my blog.

Bob A

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Posted (edited)
On 3/29/2019 at 3:40 PM, scandinavian13 said:

It really isn't my job. I'm really (clearly) not the best PR person. I just jumped in to make a joke. It seems to flown over heads, though, so I'll explain:

Your posts have all been filled with a bunch of arguments to emotion.

To be perfectly honest, it's your posts that come across as overly defensive. The poster you are addressing has provided his reasoning and whether or not you agree with said reasoning, it's pretty dismissive (and frankly a rhetorical cheap shot) to belittle the reasoning as "emotional" in an attempt to make his point appear irrelevant without actually addressing any of them.

I don't really have strong feelings here, I've bought PMDG products and I am currently using them but your behavior in public certainly has an influence on future purchase decisions.

Regarding the pricing... it's ultimately your choice. I don't criticize companies for the pricing decisions they make. You're perfectly entitled to go with the pricing you think makes sense for your products while I'm perfectly entitled to not buy the product if I have a different view.

The reasoning for having to pay the full price for the 747 again certainly left a bitter taste in my mouth because the P3D version is not a completely new development and the added costs of having to provide support for future versions of P3D is something all other developers are dealing with as well. I did end up buying it. Will I do it for other products? Unlikely because again... I'm perfectly entitled to decide when I've had enough of a specific pricing policy. Whether or not it works out for you, that's not for me to decide.

Edited by flycln
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6 hours ago, flycln said:

To be perfectly honest, it's your posts that come across as overly defensive. The poster you are addressing has provided his reasoning and whether or not you agree with said reasoning, it's pretty dismissive (and frankly a rhetorical cheap shot) to belittle the reasoning as "emotional" in an attempt to make his point appear irrelevant without actually addressing any of them.

I didn't belittle anything, and I didn't call him emotional. The logical fallacy that was part of his argument is called appeal to emotion. That's it. Nothing more. It's a fact. Facts are facts. The problem is that appeals to emotion don't deal in facts. The reason for the appeal to the emotion is usually because of the lack of facts, or facts in the face of the argument: believe this because it's morally right, instead of factually right.

There's nothing wrong with mounting a defense, either.

If someone tells you that your user name is flyzqr, then your correction of their assertion in the face of facts doesn't make you defensive. Your statement of fact that it is factually flycln is a defense backed by facts. There's nothing wrong with that.

6 hours ago, flycln said:

I'm perfectly entitled to decide when I've had enough of a specific pricing policy.

If anyone read into my posts that they are not entitled to this, then I would ask that they go back to read my posts.

I never argued against people having opinions, or that their decisions to buy or not buy are right or wrong. I was pointing out that the very fervent posts - that were devoid of any factual content - were poor arguments. Your argument, in contrast, is actually pretty well-reasoned. I don't necessarily like seeing all of it, but you've clearly couched it as your opinion, you pointed out a disagreement with my earlier posts, which I can understand, and that's that.

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On 4/2/2019 at 6:16 AM, hornplayer said:

All the responses have been enlightening. I downloaded a "brand" product 737 tested for several days and found to be inaccurate on many details such as simple things like changing barometer settings, radio frequency settings, and on one approach to KSEA, the aircraft speed would switch from 45 knots back to 350knots in a matter of 2 seconds...On a 30 day trial period, I have requested a refund, and received that refund to purchase the PMDG 737 (800-900) model for P3DV.x....I still use FSX on drive D with all of the PMDG's and other brand  aircraft. I have a very high end computer which will handled all the scenery and "add-ones".

I am requesting the admin to close my blog.

Bob A

 

Same experience. But I’ll openly admit it was the ifly which I view a Mickey Mouse product. Poorly developed isn’t even strong enough. Embarrassing comes to mind...

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Posted (edited)
On 3/27/2019 at 12:15 PM, hornplayer said:

I have about $150.00 to buy a payware airplane. I am using P3DV4.X the latest version...I haven't purchased any PMDG aircraft for P3Dv4, but did purchase all the PMDG aircraft for FSX...At the moment, I am using other brands, but not totally satisfied with them...I am toying between a "new" airbus from another company or  the PMDG 747..."Queen of the sky" base for $136, I believe...

If someone can convince me why I should buy PMDG product over other brands in a couple of hours from now, I will purchase the PMDG. This might sound silly, but I need some "frank" opinions...

Bob, 

Just DO IT if you haven't done so already, because you won't regret moving from FSX to P3D.  Choosing PMDG's B744 (and B747-8) version for P3Dv4.5 over the 32 bit FSX version is well worth it in my opinion, in spite of the fact that it means shelling out more hard earned pocket money!  PMDG are making software improvements to their aircraft all the time, but the difference between the number of animations available on the PR3PARED v4.5 aircraft compared to the FSX version is well worth the move alone (for example, you don't get Rainmaker in the FSX aircraft) - and you won't come up against the dreaded FSX Out of Memory issues either.

Edited by berts

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