Buy addons? Or stand pat?

[MarkW 1,490]

If something good comes along that I like, I will buy it, just like I would do before the MSFS announcement.  My thinking is that the sim is probably a year away, and then it will be at least another year or 2, 3 4 before all of the addons are available for the new sim.  Might as well enjoy a great addon now and for at least a few years before switching over.  If I was going to hold off on anything right now it would be a computer upgrade.  

[n4gix 4,947]

4 hours ago, Greazer said:

A very small minority are full time and most of those folks are retired so it's really a hobby not a job to put the food on the table. You don't have college grads going into full time FS development, haha. Let's keep this real. Most of it is for beer money, and maybe wings too 😂

Okay, you have made your opinion clear. Just to make my point clear I'll confess that for me personally, I am seventy+ years old, partially disabled so unable to work - assuming anyone would hire me anyway - and have to make do with my pitiful, paltry, pittance from Social Security: $7812/year...

...so yeah, for me at least it is quite personal. I was very fortunate to have enough talent to become a paid professional modeler and systems programmer these past few decades. For that I'm grateful. Were it not for this I'd be living in my 1998 Toyota Camry. Well, at least as long as I could keep the license and insurance paid.

I can positively guarantee you that I'm not the only FS developer under similar circumstances.

[toprob 105]

Just a couple of things from a developer perspective -- I always imagined that a lot of developers are like me, in that this is my only income, and I chose to do this for a living knowing that I'll never make a lot of money. I'm happy to keep ahead of my bills and rent, but sometimes things get close... As an older guy (not old enough to collect my pension, but getting there) I've had two entirely different careers, neither of which survived the technological developments of the last 30 years, so it was either retrain -- again -- or do something with what started out as a hobby/obsession. Making heaps of money isn't part of it, but surviving the lean times is still a necessity!

Unrelated point 2  -- I keep a close eye on developments which may affect my sales, so I was aware that the announcement of a new sim will hit me. That's normally the way it happens, I've lived through a lot of new sims/versions, but of course this can also open up opportunities, so it all balances well in the end. I didn't notice any change in the market when MSFS was first announced, this remained the same through the initial drip-fed information, but with the big dump of info following the preview event people are definitely 'taking a breather' from buying stuff. I expected this, and have prepared to some extent, but I'm not entirely sure that things will bounce back any time soon. I can understand that people have seen the new sim in action, they've heard that you can fly VFR anywhere in the world, so they imagine that this is the answer -- buy a sim which looks great (better than anything else) straight out of the box, and maybe they might just need to buy one or two addon aircraft to keep them going for a long time.

At some stage I believe that those who have put any purchases on hold will see that there's a long time to go before they'll have the new sim in their hands, or maybe not -- after all, they may have an alpha build very soon. Once the dust settles I'll have a clearer idea, and there are still options which will help me survive for a while, maybe long enough to figure out if I can develop for the new sim.

 

[GCBraun 2,390]

8 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

1.2 billion "Players" ... no ... users yes.  Not everyone that owns a PC plays 3D games.  65 Million XBOX users.  But agree that PC gaming has gained ground vs. consoles but that's always the case as the "fixed hardware" consoles start to feel old ... then swing happens when a new consoles are released like the new XBOX is due out late 2020.

Cheers, Rob.

There are approximately 2.2 billion gamers in the world, 1.2 billion of those who play games are playing games on a PC.

https://gaimin.io/how-many-gamers-are-there/

[tonywob 4,768]

7 hours ago, Greazer said:

Again, as I said this is the small minority and most are doing side projects to supplement their retirement money. It's a hobby.  If you ever go to the flight sim Expo and talk to people you would know.

As I already said, I just came back from the UK version of FS Expo and it's the complete opposite of what you say (Unless you don't consider the UK conference a realistic source). You can discredit it as a hobby and pocket/beer money as much as you like and that's your view, but as someone who actually works in this industry full-time and deals with other vendors/contractors all the time, I can confidently say you're of the mark here, but I guess we can just agree to disagree. Of course there are many who do this as a hobby and release one addon every year or so, but the actual companies that produce and sell the majority of products people buy are all working on it full-time and I'm sure you actually don't see what happens behind the scenes at these companies and actually realise how many people are involved.

 

3 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

However, the work loads I can assure you are pretty staggering even for the experienced developers/artists.  My routine is 9am to 2-3am 6 or 7 days a week with 15-30 mins on AVSIM as a break

Indeed, I left full-time employment to do flight sim developing and it's incredibly demanding work. I'm often burning the midnight and weekend oil, and whilst it's also very rewarding work it's certainly not for everyone

[Dominique_K 10,133]

2 hours ago, GCBraun said:

There are approximately 2.2 billion gamers in the world, 1.2 billion of those who play games are playing games on a PC.

https://gaimin.io/how-many-gamers-are-there/

As a rule, I don’t believe in any data given without explaining the methodology behind them. And I would be doubly cautious taking the word from a site promoting a mining plate-form... 

[GCBraun 2,390]

31 minutes ago, domkle said:

As a rule, I don’t believe in any data given without explaining the methodology behind them. And I would be doubly cautious taking the word from a site promoting a mining plate-form... 

We are not using the data for some scientific research here. You may dispute the validity of that number and I'll even point out that a big chunk of PC-gamers are in the asian market and generally can only relate to the PUBG's and Fortnite's of the world, but that is also the case in the console segment.

Or do you really think the average console gamer would be likely to spend 150USD for a FSLabs Airbus? Yes, perhaps he or she may buy an airport once in a while, but that is pretty much it.

MSFS is a PC-first product and the hardcore base that buys add-ons regularly will be on the PC.

Edited October 7, 2019 by GCBraun

[Dominique_K 10,133]

48 minutes ago, GCBraun said:

We are not using the data for some scientific research and it seems clear to me that a big chunck of PC-gamers are in the asian market and generally can only relate to the PUBG's and Fortnite's of the world, but that seems also to be the case in the console segment.

Or do you really think the average console gamer would like to spend 150USD for a FSLabs Airbus?

MSFS is a PC-first product and the hardcore base that buy add-ons regularly will be on the PC

I was commenting the figures GC not the tropisms of the Fortnite Asian gamer.

MS has clearly stated that their primary goal in designing the sim is the PC market anyway. And FSlabs will stay a small segment even in the PC simmer  market. Not sure what is your point here.

Using figures calls for rigor if you want to avoid manipulation no  need to do scientific research for being  cautious. 

Edited October 7, 2019 by domkle

[GCBraun 2,390]

43 minutes ago, domkle said:

I was commenting the figures GC not the tropisms of the Fortnite Asian gamer.

MS has clearly stated that their primary goal in designing the sim is the PC market anyway. And FSlabs will stay a small segment even in the PC simmer  market. Not sure what is your point here.

Using figures calls for rigor if you want to avoid manipulation no  need to do scientific research for being  cautious. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/748072/number-pc-gamers-world-platform/

Would this be a better source for you? Same figure is shown: around 1,3 billion PC-gamers worldwide.

In any case, I just added this point to the discussion because others were arguing that add-on makers would mostly be interested in the XBox market, which I believe is not something realistic based on the use-cases of MSFS and relevant market sizes.

[smoothchat 99]

On 10/6/2019 at 7:35 PM, rjfry said:

let hope this is not what you see in sim if a 2800ti is popping

I think there will always be a certain level of pop depending on height, speed and bandwidth. The programming trick is to make it as subtle as possible. Often using distant haze to conceal it.

On 10/6/2019 at 1:37 PM, Noodle said:

I don't think I should have to purchase a dozen addons just to get a simulator up to baseline standards.

There will always be a market for some feature or enhancement of an existing feature for 3rd parties to exploit. 

I think that asking Asobo to incorporate every addon feature that we are aware of today could see a release some time in 2025, and even then those special features may not be as good as those delivered by the 3rd party developer because he/she specializes in that feature.

My favorite addon is EZDOK.  Should I expect Asobo to incorporate all of it's features and hold up the release for everyone else who would rather have the Ground Handling addon feature ?

The better approach is to ask Asobo to expose more of it's internal variables etc so that 3rd parties can provide even more features that we haven't even thought of yet. 

Asobo has assured us that they are already exposing more internals.

.

Edited October 7, 2019 by smoothchat

[Dominique_K 10,133]

51 minutes ago, GCBraun said:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/748072/number-pc-gamers-world-platform/

Would this be a better source for you? Same figure is shown: around 1,3 billion PC-gamers worldwide.

I believe figures when I see or know the methodology used. An old professional reflex not blunted after 5 years of retirement. This site has a paywall BTW.

51 minutes ago, GCBraun said:

n any case, I just added this point to the discussion because others were arguing that add-on makers would mostly be interested in the XBox market, which I believe is not something realistic based on the use-cases of MSFS and relevant market sizes.

I agree with you that MS says it targets the PC market in the design and chronogically. Surmising how the market will drift from its starting point when the Xbox version is released is beyond my predicting ability but what the 3 rd party devs say  might be of value. It is their market after all.

Edited October 7, 2019 by domkle

[Noodle 626]

31 minutes ago, smoothchat said:

The better approach is to ask Asobo to expose more of it's internal variables etc so that 3rd parties can provide even more features that we haven't even thought of yet.

Maybe, maybe not. Until about 6 weeks ago, everyone would have said it was silly to ask <FS developer> for worldwide VFR quality scenery, or complex weather engine with 60 layers of clouds and rainbows. Common wisdom says those things are the domain of 3rd party developers.

Not anymore.

I agree with you that there is still plenty of maneuvering room for 3rd parties, and I dont expect MS or Asobo to think of and incorporate every conceivable feature. But I do want them to think of and include as many as possible.

I don't know exactly what features EZDOK provides; I think it's a camera and dynamic head movement addon. I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect the platform developer to provide a robust and realistic camera system. I don't pay money for a better camera system in DCS, or Forza, or Train Sim World.

I think we have been conditioned to expect so little from our platforms, and so much from our 3rd parties, that it's difficult to conceive of a different paradigm. I seek an end to the current status quo.

[G-RFRY 1,707]

Flight sim is a niche product not main stream always has been and always will be, figures are mostly games not sims take fortnite world championship this year 100 best invited to play for top prize $1milion, the Game is free to play online the franchise is worth 2.5billion, Sims are not in the same league and the top ones are not flight.    

PS 2 years from now I will be flying in winter over the alps not in MSFS though, I will wait till it been out for a while and see, I have over the years tried them all but stayed with MSFS franchise tried FSW went to P3Dv4 after it had been out for a few months and bedded in, to get the benefit of 64bit, tried XP not to my taste, and in the end that's what it comes down to personal choice the developer provides a product you are not compelled to buy it, the same will be true of MSFS as it gets nearer release and you find out more of what it will not do.   

Edited October 7, 2019 by rjfry

[smoothchat 99]

I enjoy many sims for their different features.

Aerofly FS2 for VR, P3D for my home cockpit, Xplane for eye candy and formation flying.

FS2020 will be another choice depending on my mood. The challenge of "optioning it up to the max" will also keep me entertained.

It's a great time to be alive 😉

[Casualcas 830]

Great discussions and glad its civil. It's funny how many have brought up Xbox in this conversation. Due to the limited space on consoles, I dont know just how many addons you can put on it. 

I have an xbox, and neither, I or even my 18 year old son have even turned it on in over 2 years. Weird, huh?  And in my mind, MSFS, isn't a title I would sit on the floor in front of the tv, or lay on the couch playing. 

I haven't touched scenery design, or aircraft design in years. Life has kept me pretty occupied, and my barn still needs a new coat of paint. If and when I retire, I will probably be up to my neck in designing again. We all will see where the future of the market will take us. I still see a future, no matter the platform, or base SIM.