For all of those worried about their existing, expensive hardware, what's the problem? Your hardware won't suddenly stop working the day the new sim is released - it will continue to work with whatever sim you currently use. No one will force you to buy a different sim. If MS hadn't announced the new sim, you would probably have happily carried on using your hardware with FSX/XP/P3D without a second thought. In that respect, nothing has changed. It's a bit like saying you have expensive custom alloy wheels for your old sports car and you're worried about not being able to use them on a new Ferrari!

12 hours ago, Scottoest said:

In fairness, they set the tenor of the discussion by not-so-subtly implying that everyone here was just blinded by shiny visuals, and not thinking of the details of the flight experience, which is both plainly untrue, and gently condescending.

Agreed, and seems like many in the community at Avsim are underestimating how important other aspects of a true "flight simulator" can be. E.g. accurate micro-weather vs. pretty clouds. I think Asobo is getting this (they are talking a good game) but likely to be a long road map for some of the features needed.

Edited November 17, 20196 yr by yurei

2 hours ago, vortex681 said:

For all of those worried about their existing, expensive hardware, what's the problem? Your hardware won't suddenly stop working the day the new sim is released - it will continue to work with whatever sim you currently use. No one will force you to buy a different sim. If MS hadn't announced the new sim, you would probably have happily carried on using your hardware with FSX/XP/P3D without a second thought. In that respect, nothing has changed. It's a bit like saying you have expensive custom alloy wheels for your old sports car and you're worried about not being able to use them on a new Ferrari!

Not sure why I am still surprised by the Dunning–Kruger effect in some of the more vocal members of Avsim regarding how the sim is used in the global community. Your usual suspects that comment at Avsim do NOT accurately represent the composition of the global community as a whole. 

Most here have NO idea how big the helo community is, for example (ostensibly the fastest growing user group for flight sim as far as I can tell). The cockpit building community is a great example of this cognitive bias. It is a huge community that has a higher percentage of real world pilots than the Avsim population and generally more disposable income. They don't hang out here because the vocal posters at Avsim and the membership in general do not use real world procedures (live ATC) and do not represent their day-to-day concerns in the sim. (PS, since the invasion of the Reddit VR fanboi-s, the situation for cockpit builders and real world pilots has deteriorated. This thread is a good example.) 

Believe me, MS knows what is happening in the global sim marketplace. They have seen the success of LM. They know that organizations like AOPA are suggesting the use of home simulators. 

Edited November 17, 20196 yr by yurei

4 hours ago, yurei said:

Not sure why I am still surprised by the Dunning–Kruger effect in some of the more vocal members of Avsim regarding how the sim is used in the global community. Your usual suspects that comment at Avsim do NOT accurately represent the composition of the global community as a whole.

Firstly, unless I'm completely misunderstanding why you quoted me, I take it as a personal insult that you think that the Dunnig-Kruger Effect applies to me (or most other people here, for that matter):

"A common reading of the effect is that those people who are least competent at a task often incorrectly rate themselves as high-performers because they are too ignor ant to know otherwise."

I've never claimed to be a "high performer" in the Avsim forums. I only post to either ask a question or when I consider that I know enough about what I'm saying to be able to contribute to a thread. Very few people here could be considered as true experts but many have experience which others find useful.

Secondly, exactly what was incorrect (or controversial) in my post that you quoted? I also have hardware which may not work with the new sim but I'm not unduly worried as I know it will still work with the sims I already use. As I said earlier, no one is going to be forced into buying the new sim.

4 hours ago, yurei said:

Most here have NO idea how big the helo community is, for example (ostensibly the fastest growing user group for flight sim as far as I can tell). The cockpit building community is a great example of this cognitive bias. It is a huge community that has a higher percentage of real world pilots than the Avsim population and generally more disposable income. They don't hang out here because the vocal posters at Avsim and the membership in general do not use real world procedures (live ATC) and do not represent their day-to-day concerns in the sim. (PS, since the invasion of the Reddit VR fanboi-s, the situation for cockpit builders and real world pilots has deteriorated. This thread is a good example.)

Where is your evidence for any of this? Exactly how many users does the cockpit building fraternity have? "the vocal posters at Avsim and the membership in general do not use real world procedures" - and you know this how (other than by guessing wildly)?

Edited November 17, 20196 yr by vortex681

Just now, vortex681 said:

Where is your evidence for any of this? Exactly how many users does the cockpit building fraternity have? "the vocal posters at Avsim and the membership in general do not use real world procedures" - and you know this how (other than by guessing wildly)?

My thoughts exactly..

15 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

Firstly, unless I'm completely misunderstanding why you quoted me, I take it as a personal insult that you think that the Dunnig-Kruger Effect applies to me 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ no specific insult intended. However, the dismissive nature (to me) of your comment about a large community that is most definitely not represented at Avsim seemed like a appropriate time to point out the importance of that un-represented community. The Dunning-Kreuger effect applies, because many posters here believe they represent the entire global community's position on how the sim is used. 

Sorry for your offense. 

Real world procedures, if a flight sim enthusiast is claiming real world procedures and is not using live ATC (such as VATSIM or PilotEdge), they are mistaken, sorely mistaken. Ask any real world pilot. The exception to this is for sim pilots who are flying by real world VFR rules using non-towered airports. For inductive basis of my (apparently bold) statement, check the last ATC poll published here at Avsim. 

Edited November 17, 20196 yr by yurei

14 minutes ago, yurei said:

However, the dismissive nature (to me) of your comment about a large community that is most definitely not represented at Avsim seemed like a appropriate time to point out the importance of that un-represented community. The Dunning-Kreuger effect applies, because many posters here believe they represent the entire global community's position on how the sim is used. 

How were my comments in the ealier post dismissive? I was simply pointing out the facts. Also, I think you misunderstand the effect you're referring to. It has nothing to do with what you represent, but everything to do with those of low ability believing that they know much more about something than they actually do. Is that really what you meant?

14 minutes ago, yurei said:

Ask any real world pilot.

I am a real world pilot (or at least I was until I retired a few years ago after almost 40 years of professional flying all over the world).

Edited November 17, 20196 yr by vortex681

2 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

I think you misunderstand the effect you're referring to. It has nothing to do with what you represent, but everything to do with those of low ability believing that they know much more about something than they actually do. Is that really what you meant?

I am a real world pilot (or at least I was until I retired a few years ago after almost 40 years of professional flying all over the world).

Yes, that is what I meant...folks with little knowledge of the global community as a whole that speak like they know the global community. 

Regards your experience as a real world pilot, then you understand the difference between IFR and VFR in real world. Again, the only real world procedures that can be done in the sim without live ATC is VFR using untowered airports. The use of ATC programs is little more than flight following in IMC compared to live ATC.

Again, my apologies if I offended you. It was not my intent.

1 minute ago, yurei said:

Yes, that is what I meant...folks with little knowledge of the global community as a whole that speak like they know the global community. 

I'm sorry but without providing evidence for your earlier quotes (about the size of communities and number of users, for example), you also seem to fall into this category.

4 minutes ago, yurei said:

Again, the only real world procedures that can be done in the sim without live ATC is VFR using untowered airports.

Whilst it's undoubtedly more realistic to talk to "real" air traffic controllers, not being able to do so doesn't stop you from carrying out real-world IFR procedures in an offline sim. You don't actually need someone to give you permission to fly a particular SID or STAR, for example. Other than for something like a ground-controlled approach, there's very little which genuinely requires you to talk to someone to complete the procedure.

6 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

I'm sorry but without providing evidence for your earlier quotes (about the size of communities and number of users, for example), you also seem to fall into this category.

Whilst it's undoubtedly more realistic to talk to "real" air traffic controllers, not being able to do so doesn't stop you from carrying out real-world IFR procedures in an offline sim. You don't actually need someone to give you permission to fly a particular SID or STAR, for example. Other than for something like a ground-controlled approach, there's very little which genuinely requires you to talk to someone to complete the procedure.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ again. As an active member of 3 other flightsim communities, none of whom fly airliners and most of whom are not members here, I can tell you there are thousands of members in the other communities. For your analysis of my statement, consider DCS as an example. It is, I'm afraid, the folks who are only in this community that are possibly suffering from Dunning-Kreuger as far as I can tell. 

We seem to be hair splitting around the semantics of "real world procedures". There can be no further discussion possible on that subject until we can agree on that definition. 

On 11/15/2019 at 8:32 PM, yurei said:

Eric, not much will or desire in these forums to accurately emulate what goes on in a real airplane cockpit. You will be accused of being a dinosaur, your experience will be denigrated and potentially worse. 

Those of us continuing to seek the most accurate simulation of real world flying will likely find more community in the cockpit builders groups on FB. 

Good luck and know that you are not alone, just a member of a quieter and, perhaps, more focused community.

 

On 11/15/2019 at 8:17 PM, B777ER said:

To be perfectly frank, if what i stated bears fruit, have fun with your 15 dollar MS approved joystick. You really think those of us with close to 10k in hardware are going to throw it all in a closet if incompatible? Get real.

 

Erm...

 

If you want the most accurate simulation of real-world flying, get a $150,000 millitary simulator. Microsoft evidently really want to get this one right - that's why it's at X019, and not a sidenote. They've stated, on their webpage, in literally the first insider post, "Accessibility is important to us. Whatever your abilities are, if you want to fly, we are going to do whatever we can to make that happen. Yoke and pedals, mouse and keyboard, controller, etc. No pilot should be left behind."

Cheapest yoke, no pedals, I can find? $170. They're not going to limit it to Microsoft-only products. They haven't in the past... what, 15 years? They're pretty open as far as user access goes. They're not Apple.

 

 

Xbox One/ Scarlett is, as they said, a sidenote, They're aiming for PC players. They'll listen to the community. And one thing we've all forgotten, all of us-

 

 

Games get updated.

 

If your feature isn't there in the first release, or version 1.0, if you will, please, please, please don't go here ranting on it. Games like these get updated in the first 5 hours of their release due to bugs. Your Logitech Extreme 3d Pro will work, and your obscure $15,000 precision-balanced carbon-fiber space-grade military-style cockpit will work. I mean, look at Forza. Racing wheels work because you can map buttons to them, set keys, etc. AND EVEN IF MSFS DOESN'T SUPPORT YOUR CONTROL SCHEME

 

Just download a key-switcher program. It simulates a button press. Or, if you're tech-savvy, run it off of a Raspberry Pi, using leads and a USB to map buttons to switches and the like.

 

Thank God we haven't gotten PS4/PS5 users ranting about how they won't get it on Playstation. That ruins a game, basically.

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 20196 yr by Concodroid

6 hours ago, vortex681 said:

It's a bit like saying you have expensive custom alloy wheels for your old sports car and you're worried about not being able to use them on a new Ferrari!

Let's be real here- which self-respecting person would use custom alloy wheels on a new Ferrari? If anything, they just add weight.

33 minutes ago, Concodroid said:

 

 

Erm...

 

If you want the most accurate simulation of real-world flying, get a $150,000 millitary simulator. Microsoft evidently really want to get this one right - that's why it's at X019, and not a sidenote. They've stated, on their webpage, in literally the first insider post, "Accessibility is important to us. Whatever your abilities are, if you want to fly, we are going to do whatever we can to make that happen. Yoke and pedals, mouse and keyboard, controller, etc. No pilot should be left behind."

Cheapest yoke, no pedals, I can find? $170. They're not going to limit it to Microsoft-only products. They haven't in the past... what, 15 years? They're pretty open as far as user access goes. They're not Apple.

 

 

Xbox One/ Scarlett is, as they said, a sidenote, They're aiming for PC players. They'll listen to the community. And one thing we've all forgotten, all of us-

 

 

Games get updated.

 

If your feature isn't there in the first release, or version 1.0, if you will, please, please, please don't go here ranting on it. Games like these get updated in the first 5 hours of their release due to bugs. Your Logitech Extreme 3d Pro will work, and your obscure $15,000 precision-balanced carbon-fiber space-grade military-style cockpit will work. I mean, look at Forza. Racing wheels work because you can map buttons to them, set keys, etc. AND EVEN IF MSFS DOESN'T SUPPORT YOUR CONTROL SCHEME

 

Just download a key-switcher program. It simulates a button press. Or, if you're tech-savvy, run it off of a Raspberry Pi, using leads and a USB to map buttons to switches and the like.

 

Thank God we haven't gotten PS4/PS5 users ranting about how they won't get it on Playstation. That ruins a game, basically.

 

 

 

Duude, relatively cogent points, weirdy rant, bizarro formatting. Did you intend to do that? You ok? I won't assume you drive a car or fly a sim like this.

@yurei I highly doubt that a real commercial pilot would use a videogame to train himself. 

Also I found your messages quite arrogant with the classic elitist attitude of some simmers: the "I do real world procedures, so I am better than the others who don't".

Remember that we are talking about videogames, played on home made PC with joystick/yokes made in china without any possibility to feel the "plane", often flying airliners alone and without knowledge and training.

Edited November 17, 20196 yr by francy25

7 hours ago, yurei said:

The cockpit building community is a great example of this cognitive bias. It is a huge community that has a higher percentage of real world pilots than the Avsim population and generally more disposable income. They don't hang out here because the vocal posters at Avsim and the membership in general do not use real world procedures (live ATC) and do not represent their day-to-day concerns in the sim.

That has to be one of the most clever post I read so far on Avsim. The whole analysis and especially the Dunning-Kruger part.

Ok I've come to post a few comments here since a few weeks regarding upcoming MSFS. I must say I had a bizarre overall felling of what is going in Avsim forums, I mean, a strange feeling that my objectives where not aligned to vocals posters objectives.

I'm in the cockpit building community and also a multi rating rw commercial pilot. But yes I feel like a total stranger here. I tried to initiate some discussions about very simple and possible "hacks" to get our existing P3D cockpit sims functionnal with MSFS visuals at release and was instantly granted by "bad idea" "won't work" "forget it". I tried to have people adopt a 30,000 ft view of flightsim as a fundation and the overwhelming majority of posters don't get it past their ground level obsessions (ATC, out of the box study level airliners, etc).

People want it all in the base game, with the lowest price, at the cost of compromizing the very core of the problem we need to solve right now : earth and weather engine. They don't get that we have already figured quite a bit of the rest with 3rd party specialized developper. If you use Prosim 737 or F1Tech Garmin 1000 or a custom external panel with a decent flight model (which by the way are far from "poor" as the non pilots says all the time here, they are perfectly fine for RW training and academic operations), you know that the only thing lagging in your sim in 21019 is immersive visuals. If you're not in cockpit building, what do you think is missing to the existing usual suspects "study level" addons ? The PMDG737 is a really good sim, the systems are done, basically everything works as it should, what do you expect in that regard with a new FlightSim ? New interior, new textures, that's visual, that's the core engine ; systems will remain the same as it should, it is already done and in use. Don't code twice, do not reinvent the wheel at each iteration, if it ain't broken don't fix it.

In-game software driven ATC is a very good example as I personnaly think it should not even be a concern to a community oriented toward realism. First an ATC engine has nothing to do with the core flight sim engine, it could and should easily (poorly) be made and sold by a 3rd part, with an external dedicated program. Second and most importantly, an ATC engine will inevitably deliver very poor ATC experience, whatever the level of wasted ressources you throw at it. That is because ATC, with the very exception of CPDLC, is a human thing and can't be reproduced in AI at this stage of technlogy. If you want realism in ATC you use a human powered service, that is where online ATC services shine (with all their flaws), and where if you're serious about training you do not have the choice to use anything else than PilotEdge. How do you repeat an IFR clearance in a software ATC ? You "press 1 to acknowledge". Seriously, just get out of your confort zone and ask and repeat a clearance on a RW operation, you will understand that a/ nothing goes as planned b/ taking note, repeating, anticipating, understanding is a whole mind game in itself c/ human error is a thing, and this is a game changer, on the air you get bad controller, bad pilots, wrong clearance, bad comprehension, accents, humor, fear, panic, overconfidence, etc. ATC is not about pressing buttons to send pre-made messages, it is totally useless. Let's MS perfects wold / weather / dynamics and absolutely not waste time on non required elements.

That said you won't change people mind on the internet. Most Avsim posters are basically running in circles, so the best thing to do might be to not participate, and to not participate one should try not to read. But man is weak, so I am here pulling my hair reading horrifics requests and tryin not to respond.

Edited November 17, 20196 yr by tarere