7 minutes ago, francy25 said:

I highly doubt that a real commercial pilot would use a videogame to train himself.

LOL, we should have a serious talk. If you're not able to use FSX/P3D/XPLANE as a very efficient training platform, you're doing it very wrong ! Actually, I even used FLIGHTGEAR on a laptop for IFR training, with keyboard and mouse, with success. What part do you doubt about ? You think you conduct an NDB approach differently in real life ? Or pitch + power on the sim won't do it in a real airplane ?

Well, that was the nail on the coffin. I'm outta here.

33 minutes ago, francy25 said:

@yurei I highly doubt that a real commercial pilot would use a videogame to train himself. 

Also I found your messages quite arrogant with the classic elitist attitude of some simmers: the "I do real world procedures, so I am better than the others who don't".

Remember that we are talking about videogames, played on home made PC with joystick/yokes made in china without any possibility to feel the "plane", often flying airliners alone and without knowledge and training.

Francesco, 

I appreciate your perspective but I will tell you there are several real world pilots that I know who use home cockpits and "gamer" sim to keep their IFR and ATC skills sharp. To a person, they use PilotEdge and/or VATSIM. I have a friend that makes a decent living off of building cockpits for these type of "gamers". Please check out the AOPA and AFSBI websites if you are interested. 

On FB, there are hundreds of these folks around the world using "gamer" sims as part of their pilotage training. I have said, and will continue to say, most of the community at Avsim does not appreciate or understand what is being doing in the broader community. 

Sorry if you don't like my tone...I will only say that readers on the internet hear what they read with voices in their head that were already there.

Would love to know more about you use the sim.

Edited November 17, 20196 yr by yurei
corrected AFSBI website

20 minutes ago, tarere said:

That said you won't change people mind on the internet. Most Avsim posters are basically running in circles, so the best thing to do might be to not participate, and to not participate one should try not read. But man is weak, so I am here pulling my hair reading horrics requests and tryin not to respond.

Thanks for verifying my comments on ATC in the sim. Until someone has been in a real world cockpit or used a service like PE, they will have no idea how different real world is from the sim. 

I too, am weak, especially when reading someone who says cockpits are no longer relevant in sim world 🙂

 

39 minutes ago, yurei said:

Duude,

Duuuuuuude!

39 minutes ago, yurei said:

relatively cogent points,

Thank you.

39 minutes ago, yurei said:

weirdy rant, bizarro formatting. Did you intend to do that?

I think I've been spending too much time on reddit.

 

41 minutes ago, yurei said:

I won't assume you drive a car or fly a sim like this.

Being normal is boring. I mean, who wants a pilot that flies smoothly? I, for one would love my in flight entertainment to be a demonstration of the maneuverability of the flight I'm on. G-forces? Bah!

3 hours ago, Concodroid said:

Let's be real here- which self-respecting person would use custom alloy wheels on a new Ferrari?

Exactly! I rest my case.

47 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

Exactly! I rest my case.

It's like repainting an E-Type yellow, green, and red. People who want to do that are, as James May would say, "yobbos".

7 hours ago, francy25 said:

@yurei I highly doubt that a real commercial pilot would use a videogame to train himself. 

Also I found your messages quite arrogant with the classic elitist attitude of some simmers: the "I do real world procedures, so I am better than the others who don't".

Remember that we are talking about videogames, played on home made PC with joystick/yokes made in china without any possibility to feel the "plane", often flying airliners alone and without knowledge and training.

without getting into too much details from my PPL all the way to my multiengine rating both my schools and trainers used MSFS as a home and in school refresher . bad weather days i used to go down my instructors house and practice IFR and the like under his supervision . you will be amaze how many times i and some other pilot friends  had taken the time to shoot/explore and approach thats new to us on the sim way before we had ever been to the real place yet . 

when you take this flight sim hobby to the next level combined with real world experience you have no idea how much it has helps me  to have payware airports thats up to date . after taxing around from out of all the available runways you now have a fresh picture of what to expect as far as where every taxiway building is way before you get there . 

SO YEAH WE DO USE MSFS OR OTHER AVALABLE SIMS from time to time for both fun and to refresh a thing or two ... 

7 hours ago, tarere said:

I'm in the cockpit building community and also a multi rating rw commercial pilot. But yes I feel like a total stranger here.

No need to feel a stranger - we're a wide ranging bunch.

Pit builders also vary quite a bit. For me, most of the fun was actually designing and building the thing, right from learning how to weld decent TIG seams, through to joining 2 real Boeing columns / yokes together without the need for 4 feet of space below, on to working with EPIC, then IOCards, several iterations of FDS panels etc etc. I actually learned that I preferred this part of the job more than the actually flying, although I love both.

We're all different, just like everyone else.

10 hours ago, yurei said:

Francesco, 

Would love to know more about you use the sim.

I just don't want to get back from a 4 day (or more) shift around Europe and start working again while seated in front of my PC. So I really do everything (from fly A to B in an airline to trying to squeeze a 747 on a 1000mt runway)

I think that refreshing ATC comms on IVAO/VATSIM/ecc (or refreshing procedure in general on home simulators) can be dangerous because you can develop bad habits. You really have to know what you are doing and you should do it only after having seen these things in real life, with an instructor.

I also used P3D during my ATPL training at home to prepare my VFR  navigation and IFR procedure but I always did it knowing whay I was doing: preparing a flight with a videogame. I also used an X-Plane based 737 sim with the entire flightdeck to prepare myself for the selection of the airline I work for.

Sorry but I am really cautios when it comes to use our sim for real training.

 

Edited November 18, 20196 yr by francy25

10 minutes ago, francy25 said:

You really have to know what you are doing and you should do it only after having seen these things in real life, with an instructor.

That's what we said. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you are a commercial pilot or study toward it you do know what you are doing, right ? It least I did.

So our initial statement stand correct, but your response here is totally opposed to what you said before, and that's a good thing because these sims are really unvaluable training tools.

Regarding ATC your remark stand, but I did outlined one thing : "if you're serious about training you do not have the choice to use anything else than PilotEdge". No other way for training, sure Vatsim and IVAO are unreliable if you seek serious training.

15 minutes ago, francy25 said:

Sorry but I am really cautios when it comes to use our sim for real training.

You should not be TOO MUCH cautious, provided you KNOW how to use it.

Regarding pilots who do not find a job straight after rating and let pass a few months/years, these are two species at the sim when doing a refresh or interview session :
- The one who just did nothing about their IFR except a few reading now and then
- The one deliberatly practicing on their sims "videogame"

That very often mean CFIT in a mountain vs a perfect NDB approach to MDA without bating an eye. You would be surprised.

Also, I had the opportunity to fly on individuals full scaled sim based on FSX/P3D vs commercial EASA approved training sim and I can tell you without the shadow of a doubt that one was far better and accurate than the other on a training level. And not the one you think about. Because certification is a paper with a lot of checkboxs and a lot of Euros for the authority, and those big Euros must be yearly wired, that is basically it.

11 hours ago, tarere said:

In-game software driven ATC is a very good example as I personnaly think it should not even be a concern to a community oriented toward realism. First an ATC engine has nothing to do with the core flight sim engine, it could and should easily (poorly) be made and sold by a 3rd part, with an external dedicated program. Second and most importantly, an ATC engine will inevitably deliver very poor ATC experience, whatever the level of wasted ressources you throw at it. That is because ATC, with the very exception of CPDLC, is a human thing and can't be reproduced in AI at this stage of technlogy.

You just don't know that, let Asobo amaze and surprise you in this regard like they did for all the other aspects of MSFS.

11 hours ago, tarere said:

If you want realism in ATC you use a human powered service, that is where online ATC services shine (with all their flaws), and where if you're serious about training you do not have the choice to use anything else than PilotEdge. How do you repeat an IFR clearance in a software ATC ? You "press 1 to acknowledge". Seriously, just get out of your confort zone and ask and repeat a clearance on a RW operation, you will understand that a/ nothing goes as planned b/ taking note, repeating, anticipating, understanding is a whole mind game in itself c/ human error is a thing, and this is a game changer, on the air you get bad controller, bad pilots, wrong clearance, bad comprehension, accents, humor, fear, panic, overconfidence, etc. ATC is not about pressing buttons to send pre-made messages, it is totally useless. Let's MS perfects wold / weather / dynamics and absolutely not waste time on non required elements.

You are right but what about the vast amount of simmers who don't speak english? Don't they deserve a descent experience without being frustrated?

This is this kind of accessibility Microsoft told us about, "If you want to fly, you should be able to fly", "No pilot should remain behind".

Just go fly on PilotEdge if you want to, but let the rest enjoy a descent experience if they want to, and for this, they need a core ATC using all the latest technologies available and even developed by Microsoft.

5 hours ago, Noooch said:

Just go fly on PilotEdge if you want to, but let the rest enjoy a descent experience if they want to, and for this, they need a core ATC using all the latest technologies available and even developed by Microsoft.

 

Yes.

Not only that, but remember, there are other people who play this game. Simple folk, who don't want to have add-ons just to have ATC and stuff. They don't strive for realism, they just want to fly.

On 11/16/2019 at 7:52 AM, domkle said:

FSUIPC, LINDA are things (stopgaps) of the past and MS will be most welcome to bring, at last, its own long overdue native solution. 

On the other hand, people using FSUIPC whatever equipment they have, because MS and then LM could not do the job properly, are not wrong to ask ways to still hook them  without too much trouble, ie some backwards compatibility. 

Now ready to to take some flak from both sides 😄 !

I would be very surprised if MS is able to replicate both fsuipc and LINDA and all the functionality they provide, especially LINDA which I use with my VRi Insight MCP2. 

Looks indeed fantastic, any advice from the experts here ?  should we stop to invest more money in P3D addons from now on ? Or not ?

15 minutes ago, Pluto7777 said:

Looks indeed fantastic, any advice from the experts here ?  should we stop to invest more money in P3D addons from now on ? Or not ?

The topic has been beaten to a pulp since June in all the flightsim forums of this planet. Let me sum up the consensus : it is up to you to decide what is worth to you knowing that a ballpark estimate put the relase in the second half of 2020.

PS no expert  here