Spare a thought

[andyjohnston.net 617]

It's not in the same league, but I'll use my own situation as an example.

Back in the days of fs-98/2000, I was producing freeware sceneries which were very much enjoyed by a lot of people.  I would constantly get e-mail thanking me for my work and asking that I do more.  Some were released at larger flightsim sites, and I had my own as well. They were simple things which added buildings to the empty landscapes of the sim.

Then along came FS-2002 with the introduction of auto-gen scenery, which rendered what I was doing obsolete.

So I moved on.  There's not much point in worrying about what will happen, the devs are doing what they feel is in the best interest of the product and potential consumers.  3rd parties will have to learn to adapt, as they have done in the past.  There's a huge difference between the items that were available for fs-98 vs the most recent offerings forP3D.

[fta2017 160]

Andy, you make a valid point and the FS community thrives and needs freeware developers. Long may it continue!

However what MS have done is effectively ruin the FS payware economy in a few short months, and they seem to forget that a whole industry has sprung up around their long absence, with thousands of jobs created in the past 15 years. These jobs are now at risk and the impression we're getting is that MS don't give a $&^& about it.

[andyjohnston.net 617]

I disagree.

First, I doubt that there are many people who make their livings entirely off of producing fs items.  Perhaps I'm wrong, but I can't imagine it.

And no matter what, 3rd parties have been making use of MS's product, with full knowledge that it could be changed at any time.  It just happens that because of the cancellation of flightsim it allowed those devs to do their thing for almost a decade and a half without considering changes.  I remember when ACES was axed, they said they would have been getting close to an alpha for the next version, which would've change things at the time.

[Dominique_K 10,149]

1 hour ago, fta2017 said:

Andy, you make a valid point and the FS community thrives and needs freeware developers. Long may it continue!

However what MS have done is effectively ruin the FS payware economy in a few short months, and they seem to forget that a whole industry has sprung up around their long absence, with thousands of jobs created in the past 15 years. These jobs are now at risk and the impression we're getting is that MS don't give a $&^& about it.

These times are full of dire predictions for everything, why not the flight simulation world ? Sorry but I don't buy the doomsday scenario with a Levathian wrecking havoc on a gentle simworld ! Payware and freeware are here to stay. 

Freeware : thruth to be told the increasing complexity of the sim on one hand and the abundance of  payware of high quality/reasonable price on the other hand have already slowed the freeware production and demand quite a bit these recent years. The great freeware era is behind us. Times are a changin'. For the best.  But I  still look forward to continue what I've done in past, painting and making or remodeling small airports/landscapes and I think the new sim will allow that. Why not ? It may be even easier if there is, at last, a good insertion of runways in the relief ! Am I  alone ? You bet not.  

Payware : I don't think that MS has ruined the whole economy at all. Small niche developers may vanish or become dormant but financially solid companies, publishers or developers, will survive.  Some companies like Orbx and A2A have said, several times in the past, that they didn't want to grow with debt. Doesn't it make sense now ? The months to come will be leaner for the owners and employees for sure but they are smart people, they will catch up on new opportunities.   Do you see Aerosoft, PMDG, A2A, Milviz, Orbx, FSL  and so and so forth flounder ? I don't.  What may disappear are not so much companies but products, Textures of all kinds, Vector-like and LC products etc.  I loved these products, I won't regret them if FS20 delivers what it promises. 

PS Thousands of full-time jobs seems grossly exagerated, by the way. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by domkle

[skully 1,045]

This new sim is going to spark a golden age of payware aircraft development as this is going to be where most of the money is going to be made for developers of the new sim.

MS did 3pd's a huge favor by announcing so soon- this gives current developers an early look at the new sim and identify where there may be opportunities instead of dropping a bomb on them out of nowhere leaving them flat footed.

Military aircraft and operations specific sceneries, and missions (especially naval ops with carriers) is also another area that will be ripe for development in the new sim and it will be the the death knell for DCS with its extremely limited areas of operations.

DCS aircraft devs would be wise to gear up as quickly as they can to port their products over for the new sim as soon as a sdk is available.

Opportunities will abound as soon as we get the sim in our hands and identify areas open for improvement.

This is not the end for third party developers- it is only the beginning.

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by skully

[Pastaiolo 1,688]

You are dreaming if you think DCS is going to be affected by this. DCS is on another planet regarding their military simulation and it's not a simple port over. Especially regarding the fact it's not just the planes, it's the flight dynamics, the avionics and the weapons flight models too. Plus the fact it requires Ai for vehicles etc etc etc

The limited scenarios are not an issue for DCS fights per se, more like an issue for the Top Guns who want to fly over their houses at mach 1.2 or so.

Edited November 19, 2019 by france89

[skully 1,045]

Hmm well I guess the DCS developers and operators I know that are planning to move to MSFS is just a dream I cooked up...

It will be a natural for military ops and you have no idea if the dcs flight dynamics exceed MSFS. I have DCS and it's flight dynamics are good but not what you're professing them to be.

DCS will go by the wayside along with all the other sims. It's done.

[RALF9636 1,966]

1 hour ago, skully said:

This new sim is going to spark a golden age of payware aircraft development as this is going to be where most of the money is going to be made for developers of the new sim.

MS did 3pd's a huge favor by announcing so soon- this gives current developers an early look at the new sim and identify where there may be opportunities instead of dropping a bomb on them out of nowhere leaving them flat footed.

Military aircraft and operations specific sceneries, and missions (especially naval ops with carriers) is also another area that will be ripe for development in the new sim ...

Opportunities will abound as soon as we get the sim in our hands and identify areas open for improvement.

This is not the end for third party developers- it is only the beginning.

 

I agree. There will be a demand for addon aircraft and addon airports for sure (we are still yet to see the default airports but there will always be room for improvements by airport addons). And I also expect that we will see addons that we can't even imagine right now, maybe missions with all kinds of custom AI objects, AI cars, trains, animals for specific regions ... there is always something to improve.

When there is a demand for addons there will be developers who will do it. Maybe some of the devs we know right now will be gone, but new ones will come up, maybe some of the most talented devs start working for a larger company or even for Asobo itself. We will not run out of talented addon developers as long as there is a demand for addons.

 

[gpf3m 41]

Adam Smith's rules apply.

[Cruachan 705]

5 minutes ago, gpf3m said:

Adam Smith's rules apply.

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.”

Mike

[Pastaiolo 1,688]

1 hour ago, skully said:

Hmm well I guess the DCS developers and operators I know that are planning to move to MSFS is just a dream I cooked up...

It will be a natural for military ops and you have no idea if the dcs flight dynamics exceed MSFS. I have DCS and it's flight dynamics are good but not what you're professing them to be.

DCS will go by the wayside along with all the other sims. It's done.

Let's hear it then, which DCS developers?

I did not say MSFS flight dynamics are inferior to DCS ones. I can't know. Just like you can't know. I am saying that a military environment requires a lot more variables in the form that weapons have extensive flight dynamics applied to them too, and a whole Ai is needed to handle certain operations too. It's not something that can be created out of nowhere nor ported over.

Edited November 19, 2019 by france89

[Dominique_K 10,149]

2 hours ago, skully said:

 

This is not the end for third party developers- it is only the beginning.

 

I am with you here. I do understand the angst of some developers, a couple of lean years is not something anybody would look glady into.  But there is no reason why a new market for them shouldn't arise. At least this what I read in MS declarations so far. 

What strikes me is that the whole debate on Avsim comes from a couple of small dev who cannot get their hand on the SDK and half a dozen of sympathetic simmers overblowing what the former say (Sorry Mike, not willing to offend you but this is how I see things) . The whole sector stays quiet and nobody can speak on their behalf. Maybe that says something too ?

 

  

[Baber20 1,438]

5 hours ago, fta2017 said:

These jobs are now at risk and the impression we're getting is that MS don't give a $&^& about it.

So what do you propose Microsoft should do ? Do a half arsed sim with potato scenery like FSX so these 'thousands' of jobs are saved ? I am so glad such is not and never will be the case. 3rd party devs will need to adapt. Period. There are still a ton of things 3rd party devs can do for MSFS outside of scenery. The sooner people wrap their heads around this reality, the sooner this topic can be put to rest.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Baber20

[aleex 551]

5 hours ago, fta2017 said:

Andy, you make a valid point and the FS community thrives and needs freeware developers. Long may it continue!

However what MS have done is effectively ruin the FS payware economy in a few short months, and they seem to forget that a whole industry has sprung up around their long absence, with thousands of jobs created in the past 15 years. These jobs are now at risk and the impression we're getting is that MS don't give a $&^& about it.

So what, we should continue with P3D and FSX until the end of the days? 

This is evolution. If you don’t like it, then you can still playing with P3D. But just because some people lives from an outdated product doesn’t mean the whole gaming industry should be out of the sim world.

The problem is people has been stuck for years in the same product. So if now MS can create a good product with a lot of default things that previously was a payware, I don’t see any problem with this. 

And MS is not obligated to support the economy of all of those devs. Payware ones are not doing this for charity, they are doing this for money. If they hire or fire people, that’s the risk they assume, just as any other company from any other business. 

[n4gix 4,947]

8 hours ago, andyjohnston.net said:

3rd parties will have to learn to adapt, as they have done in the past.

No, what "we" have to do is survive the next 12 to 18 months. As one of the folks who's sole livelihood is predicated on my flight simulator efforts, please pardon me for being a bit more than mildly concerned about the future...