Do we Cancel Everything? You still Travelling??

[Luke 782]

3 hours ago, birdguy said:

It's called free will and human nature. What you are looking for is a big brother to enforce laws and regulations and everything YOU think is right.

Your free will ends at the point where it affects my free will. You cannot burn down my house, nor can you burn down your own where I live - because it is likely to spread and harm me. There are all sorts of limits on our free will, which most mature people understand and accept.

There is also the notion of "personal responsibility" - in days past people used it as a way to justify not making sacrifices for others who may have been less fortunate and successful. Today even something as trivial as a mask when in public is rejected; it's proof that personal responsibility for a large number of folks is actually code for the exact opposite. Others should be responsible so that one does not need to be.

It is interesting to note that our younger generations seem more responsible than their parents - which appears to be a first. It's a good development, but perhaps not surprising given what they're about to inherit.

[Reader 2,021]

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

Of course I mean what I write.  Free will and human nature are not the least bit utopian.  You can't get away from free will and human nature.  It's hardwired into us.  It's part of our being.  And based on  many things; how we were brought up, how were we educated, what professions did we pursue, and our life experiences, makes us the we are.  And that's what makes us all different.

 

I am understanding you to be saying I am Noel and good or bad, that is how I will behave and you must all accept that I will do as I wish. You are not different at all, simply typical.

[birdguy 3,943]

1 hour ago, Luke said:

There is also the notion of "personal responsibility" - in days past people used it as a way to justify not making sacrifices for others who may have been less fortunate and successful. Today even something as trivial as a mask when in public is rejected; it's proof that personal responsibility for a large number of folks is actually code for the exact opposite. Others should be responsible so that one does not need to be.

It is interesting to note that our younger generations seem more responsible than their parents - which appears to be a first. It's a good development, but perhaps not surprising given what they're about to inherit.

Of course we have a responsibility to others.  And I have stated before that when it becomes necessary to wear a mask I will do so.  I don't live where you live and you don't live where I live.  Our situations are much different at the present time.  I'm not advocating not wearing a mask for anyone.  I just don't see the need for myself at the present time.  I monitor the number of cases a couple times a day.

Now you are gong to come back and tell me it takes 12 or 15 or 20 days before I know I have it.  But I have friends who are out and about more frequently than I am.  I would know if they come down with it.

There just aren't enough people in my 6,000 square miles of country who have it to make me worried.  Or in the thousands of square miles of the counties around us.

As I mentioned before I will wear a mask when conditions warrant it.  Like tomorrow.  I have to accompany my brother to the cancer clinic again and I will have to wear a mask when I go in with him.  And the doctor will have to take his mask off to tell me his diagnoses and recommendations because I can't understand his mumbling when he is wearing it.  It's one of those super large ones with some sort of circular device at each corner.  And while his mask is off and he is talking to me he may be spreading the virus to me (probably a one in a million chance).

If I lived where you lived I would wear a mask.  But the majority of people I've seen here don't.  And no local pandemic has occurred in SENM.

But I do appreciate all the concern so many of you have for my welfare.

Noel

[birdguy 3,943]

6 minutes ago, Reader said:

I am understanding you to be saying I am Noel and good or bad, that is how I will behave and you must all accept that I will do as I wish. You are not different at all, simply typical.

I certainly am different from all of you who seem to be offended because I won't join you in masking up.

And how many times have I said I am not advocating that any of you unmask.  Of course I accept you will do as you wish.  That's human nature.

Noel

Edited May 19, 2020 by birdguy

[ahsmatt7 1,199]

1 hour ago, Luke said:

Your free will ends at the point where it affects my free will. You cannot burn down my house, nor can you burn down your own where I live - because it is likely to spread and harm me. There are all sorts of limits on our free will, which most mature people understand and accept.

There is also the notion of "personal responsibility" - in days past people used it as a way to justify not making sacrifices for others who may have been less fortunate and successful. Today even something as trivial as a mask when in public is rejected; it's proof that personal responsibility for a large number of folks is actually code for the exact opposite. Others should be responsible so that one does not need to be.

It is interesting to note that our younger generations seem more responsible than their parents - which appears to be a first. It's a good development, but perhaps not surprising given what they're about to inherit.

Are you saying that your free will is more important than someone else's? Your first sentence seems to heavily imply that your free will Trump's everyone else's.

[HiFlyer 9,359]

Good grief, did somebody nuke all the civics classes?

[Luke 782]

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

And I have stated before that when it becomes necessary to wear a mask I will do so.  I don't live where you live and you don't live where I live.  Our situations are much different at the present time.  I'm not advocating not wearing a mask for anyone.  I just don't see the need for myself at the present time.  I monitor the number of cases a couple times a day.

Now you are gong to come back and tell me it takes 12 or 15 or 20 days before I know I have it.  But I have friends who are out and about more frequently than I am.  I would know if they come down with it.

The challenge you have is that by and large you (and I) are not competent to determine when is "an appropriate time" to wear a mask, given that the virus appears to be communicable through asymptomatic individuals. By the time you have enough cases to determine when you feel you should wear a mask, there is a good chance it is too late. Numerous people have attempted to point that out to you, but you are convinced that your own experience and personal observations trump those of people who have studied the problem for decades. Dunning-Kruger is not an abstract concept - we see it in action here.

I am very surprised, and disappointed. My parents suffered through foreign invasion, totalitarian governments, the loss of their possessions and relatives. They understood sacrifice. The generation of Americans of a similar age bleats when they have to wear a cotton mask for five minutes. It makes one miss the "Greatest Generation". Perhaps we can harness the clean energy produced by them spinning in their graves.

😞

[scotchegg 4,186]

3 hours ago, birdguy said:

And I have stated before that when it becomes necessary to wear a mask I will do so.

I just don't see the need for myself at the present time.  I monitor the number of cases a couple times a day.

There just aren't enough people in my 6,000 square miles of country who have it to make me worried.  

As I mentioned before I will wear a mask when conditions warrant it.

And while his mask is off and he is talking to me he may be spreading the virus to me (probably a one in a million chance)

And that’s the main problem. You feel qualified to assess your own risk, and place it at about one in a million based on what you see around you. Many of us would say that’s a dangerous mindset.

[Murmur 3,941]

Noel, I think it's useless arguing here. The reason I stopped following this thread long ago. Unlikely you will make others change idea, and vice-versa. I think everyone has made up their mind at this point. Fortunately, every country is opening up again. Longer total lockdowns were not feasible. Although the worse economically is yet to come anyway.

[Alan_A 1,650]

I've been trying to think about the mask question from a different perspective because it occurred to me that I'm not wearing one when I'm inside my apartment.  The reason is that I have full control over access - I'm inside a bubble with my wife and the two cats.  There's some non-zero risk, but we have so little outside contact that for practical purposes, the isolation keeps us safe. If I set foot outside the apartment - even if it's just to go downstairs and get the mail - I'm masked and gloved.  On the rare occasions when people come into the apartment - we've had a couple of maintenance visits - we're masked and gloved, and so are the maintenance staff.  Afterwards - and after I get back from my get-the-mail adventures - I discard the protective gear, wash down all the protective surfaces, then "scrub out" with thorough hand-washing.

Now, if I lived in a very remote area and had equal control over access and outside contacts, I might be willing to do without the mask - in other words, the whole area would be my big, outdoor "apartment - and I'd wear it only when going outside that bubble. But access is key.  The minute I can't control traffic in and out - even if it's just one person passing through - all signals are off and I'd use a mask. 

I'm just trying to think through the conditions under which it'd be safe for me and for others to do without.  My take so far is that it's possible, but the circumstances would have to be that extreme.

Of course, this isn't my reality.  In fact, we were just notified yesterday that we've got our first case inside the building.  It's a very big building with nearly 400 apartments, so it's not that anyone is literally breathing down my neck, or in my face.  But it does get your attention.  So... full precautions are in force here for the foreseeable future.

Last night, a young-ish neighbor bulldozed her way past me in a narrow hallway, completely oblivious because she was plugged into her iPhone.  I suggested to her fairly loudly that mask-wearing might be something she'd want to consider.

Final note on this round of mask debates - another reminder that there's nothing new under the sun.

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Alan_A

[Alan_A 1,650]

And an update for those keeping track of Sweden - over the past seven days, from May 12-19, it recorded the highest per capita covid-19 death rate in Europe, at 6.25 deaths per million inhabitants.  The UK was second in that period with 5.75 deaths per million inhabitants.

Quote

Over the course of the pandemic Sweden still has fewer deaths per capita than the United Kingdom, Spain, Italy, Belgium and France, which have all opted for lockdowns, but much higher than Nordic neighbours Denmark, Norway and Finland.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-sweden-casualties-idUSKBN22V26A

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Alan_A

[cmpbellsjc 2,961]

1 hour ago, Murmur said:

The reason I stopped following this thread long ago. Unlikely you will make others change idea, and vice-versa. 

I don’t pop into this thread much either (other than to hide political posts) as it’s just become a constant back and fourth.

Obviously Alan, Martin and the few others who keep it going have an intense interest or love of the subject of pandemics and related studies to keep it going for 132 pages.

It is interesting to observe all sides defending their positions however.

[HiFlyer 9,359]

6 minutes ago, cmpbellsjc said:

Obviously Alan, Martin and the few others who keep it going have an intense interest or love of the subject of pandemics and related studies to keep it going for 132 pages.

Though with closing in on 68K views, I would guess that more than a few are interested..........

[Alan_A 1,650]

1 hour ago, cmpbellsjc said:

Obviously Alan, Martin and the few others who keep it going have an intense interest or love of the subject of pandemics and related studies to keep it going for 132 pages.

Plus, I'm not allowed to talk about the sim I'm flying the most, so all that energy has to go somewhere... 😎

Seriously, I hope others are getting some value out of the conversation, even (especially?) those in read-only mode.

[birdguy 3,943]

6 hours ago, Luke said:

I am very surprised, and disappointed. My parents suffered through foreign invasion, totalitarian governments, the loss of their possessions and relatives. They understood sacrifice. The generation of Americans of a similar age bleats when they have to wear a cotton mask for five minutes. It makes one miss the "Greatest Generation". Perhaps we can harness the clean energy produced by them spinning in their graves.

And I served through two wars and my wife and children understood sacrifice of having a husband and father a half a world away in war zones.  What has that got to do with the issue at hand?

Over and over again I have said I am not advocating that you or anyone else not wear a mask.  It's my personal decision for myself, not for anyone else.

I know two Greatest Generation survivors of WW2.  Both served in Europe.  Neither of them are wearing masks when they go out and they are both in their 90s.  Generations have nothing to do with it.  It's personal decisions that you disagree with.  I'm sorry we disappoint you.  

I'll be sure to let everyone here know if I come down with it so you can all say, "I told you so!"  Meanwhile you will have to live with my decision which doesn't affect you at all.

Noel