A game or a simulation?

[Noel 4,496]

43 minutes ago, blueshark747 said:

There was a real life airline pilot who said somewhere long ago, that given the situation your average flight simmer wouldn’t even be able to handle the controls of an airliner on an approach and landing without freaking out once we’ve felt the robust feel of a real yoke and throttle quadrant when autopilot is off and the surface controls are in your hands with air/wind tossing the huge airliner around and the runway touchdown approaching quickly.

Yes I think it was Ted Striker that said that 

[JBDB-MD80 1,473]

2 hours ago, Noel said:

Yes I think it was Ted Striker that said that 

Its been said several times by the likes of Blackbox711, A320 sim pilot and Flightdeck2sim (real world pilots that use flight sims often). Most would fail using a level D motion type simulator  on first attempt

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Edited April 26, 2021 by jbdbow1970

[Gary1124 181]

About the best case scenario would be if the simmer is familiar enough with the layout for ground to be able to talk him through autoland setup. Hopefully the person would be rightly enough serious and humble to listen carefully and do nothing without being told.

I saw a video one time about a man flying back to FLA from Nassau with his family in a chart King Air 200. Was on a TV show to. The pilot had a coronary and expired in the seat. The father was in the right seat. He had piloted before, a Cessna 172. It didn't prepare him though for a complex like a B200. He didn't even know how to work the AP. In the end he did get them down at MIA and didn't bend up the King Air. He was sweating buckets.

[OSM 683]

Just curious why people want to know "a game or a simulation"?

[JBDB-MD80 1,473]

Ego perhaps?

[pstrub 998]

14 minutes ago, OSM said:

Just curious why people want to know "a game or a simulation"?

Because MSFS doesn't give them all they wanted in terms of IFR flying, so they can belittle it as "just a game".

To a certain degree I can sympathise, we all know there are issues with MSFS and certain limitations with the default aircraft. But all in all the situation isn't really different from other releases of Microsoft Flight Simulator. For "serious" IFR flying you always had to wait for the SDK to be finished/released (which took a while after release of FSX) and for quality 3rd party aircraft to be available. 

 

[pstrub 998]

7 hours ago, blueshark747 said:

There was a real life airline pilot who said somewhere long ago, that given the situation your average flight simmer wouldn’t even be able to handle the controls of an airliner on an approach and landing without freaking out once we’ve felt the robust feel of a real yoke and throttle quadrant when autopilot is off and the surface controls are in your hands with air/wind tossing the huge airliner around and the runway touchdown approaching quickly.

If the (PMDG trained) simmer were to land using autoland on a Cat III runway, he might make it though 😉 At least with support from a type-rated pilot over ATC.

If flying by hand is required, I'd sure prefer a real-life pilot, although I suspect chances are slim a Cessna pilot would handle it successfully. 

That said, I believe there's always a bit of heroism, elitism and self-praise involved when old school pilots talk about flight simulation... I remember reading a similar discussion on a pilot forum many years ago when they made fun of flight simmers landing an airliner because they wouldn't know what to do with an FMC (at a time when PMDG aircraft were already around, so it was perfectly within reach for an advanced simmer). Nowadays the technical side of flying is probably the easiest aspect to train in a home flight sim, as opposed to handling a real aircraft by hand...

Edited April 26, 2021 by pstrub

[Dominique_K 10,138]

This is the last frontier of home flight simulation, high quality controllers with true force feedback. 

[Gary1124 181]

About the best case scenario would be if the simmer is familiar enough with the layout for ground to be able to otalk him through autoland setup. Hopefully the person would be rightly enough serious and humble to listen carefully and do nothing without being told.

I saw a video one time about a man flying back to FLA from Nassau with his family in a chart King Air 200. Was on a TV show to. The pilot had a coronary and expired in the seat. The father was in the right seat. He had piloted before, a Cessna 172. It didn't prepare him though for a complex like a B200. He didn't even know how to work the AP. In the end he did get them down at MIA and didn't bend up the King Air. He was sweating buckets.

A lot of the chances have to do with the life experience and background of the simmer. Did his job training and life experiences prepare him to remain calm under stress? Military, first responder, police etc. Or generic 9 to 5 or shift work that is typically repetitive and predictable. Also, how did he approach his sim hobby. As a game or to learn and come as close to reality as possible?  Did he watch cockpit videos, study FARS, collect and read POH and checks on the aircraft he uses etc. One can take it far as he wants but the feel of real controls will always be a surprise.

[Gary1124 181]

1 minute ago, Dominique_K said:

This is the last frontier of home flight simulation, high quality controllers with true force feedback. 

Well, perhaps the same principles behind magnetic HALL sensors could be used to provide realistic force feedback.

Perhaps the sensors themselves could be engineered for double duty that way.

[Ricardo41 5,949]

2 minutes ago, Gary1124 said:

A lot of the chances have to do with the life experience and background of the simmer....calm under stress. 

I agree. In these kinds of (extremely unlikely) scenarios it's the guy/girl who has a steely resolve and doesn't break under maximum stress who is going to win the day, independent of whether or not he/she has been pushing pixels around in a flight sim game. 

[mrueedi 702]

2 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

high quality controllers with true force feedback. 

Every 15$ joystick has the true force feedback of an Airbus. Just the throttle detents are not there.

IMHO the spring centered force feedback that most joysticks have is not too far from reality:

If you constantly need to pull or push the stick against the force of the springs, it means that you are not trimmed well. So you start trimming until the the force dissapears. Thats nearly the same as in reality.

 

[Dominique_K 10,138]

29 minutes ago, mrueedi said:

Every 15$ joystick has the true force feedback of an Airbus. Just the throttle detents are not there.

IMHO the spring centered force feedback that most joysticks have is not too far from reality:

If you constantly need to pull or push the stick against the force of the springs, it means that you are not trimmed well. So you start trimming until the the force dissapears. Thats nearly the same as in reality.

 

The spring is indeed a motivation to trim specially on a controller like the Warthog if you don't want to have cramps in the arm at the end of the session 😀. 

Don't you actually trim because you feel a force of a specific intensity on the foils ? You don't in the sim, so trimming is more of a visual trial and error process than counteraction to a force.  This is specially true for lateral trimming.

 That being said that I am not familiar with simming with airliners, more with GA and warbirds. 

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Dominique_K

[Gary1124 181]

Seat of the pants feel is the one thing that really is out of reach of desktop flight simulation. We rely totally on our visual cortex for attitude sensation. In some ways that is more difficult. 

I only sim with real world weather. I will not do a flight in deep IFR conditions. Fog. Blinding blizzard, ceilings less than 2000 msl. I want to have enough visual reference to at least turn over to AP on climbout and approach. A lot depends to on the AP being modeled. Some are few buttons and others are a little more. My 421 C is easy. I have the main AP modes mapped to the switches on my CH Quadrant. Works same in a legacy B200 AP like Carenados.

[OSM 683]

Does anybody know a good car simulator, not a game, but a simulator, to learn how to drive in a big city with the intense traffic?