taken into account that Ubuntu (debian based) is one of the most popular distros, this exactly proves my point.
There is no consistency at all (for installing apps) between Red Hat and Ubuntu.

I tried to convince my dad to use Linux, everything went well, until he had to install something on his own.
In the end, he switched back to Windows, at least in Windows you  *only* need to click install.exe or setup.exe.

 

24 minutes ago, soaring_penguin said:

until he had to install something on his own.

installing stuff from about 9 minutes in.

100% beats picking up an ITD (internet transmitted disease) clicking on pretty much any download button on the interweb while using windows.

Edited November 26, 20214 yr by mSparks

you don't have to convince me 🤣

 

To prove my point:

 

I did a quick search on:

how to install Steam on red hat 8

ans this came on top:

https://access.redhat.com/discussions/4399951

 

rubbish for a new, non geek user.

 

All Linux flavours should really put its effort in a high quality, unified App Store, that is at the same time  heavily monitored for virusss.

This will never happen of course.  ( Also Apple has some vendors that deliver their software with standalone installers.)

16 minutes ago, soaring_penguin said:

how to install Steam on red hat 8

https://www.redhat.com/en/store/linux-platforms

https://www.redhat.com/en/services/certifications

https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-closes-landmark-acquisition-red-hat-34-billion-defines-open-hybrid-cloud-future

 

Not sure what you want to prove here.

how to install steam on Fedora:

https://itsfoss.com/install-steam-fedora/
 

it is too complicated for the average user.

(at least more difficult then clicking setup.exe after downloading from their website)

10 hours ago, mSparks said:

If that was true it definitely wouldn't be the most popular operating system on the planet.

 

This is completely misleading.  It's the #1 OS because it's used as I mentioned, by throwing it in a rack in some huge cloud datacenter among the other 1,000,000 Linux headless computers.

That also includes mobile device usage.

That is not representative of Linux as a desktop operating system.  I use Linux daily, I use it in Microsoft's Azure cloud to run Microsoft .Net Core applications.  That doesn't make me a "Linux user".

Edited November 26, 20214 yr by Gulfstream

my 2 cents:

I've learned Unix (System V and BSD 4.2) back in the days Windows was an add-on to DOS, and I was convinced back then these were superior OS for many reasons. When NeXT was announced, there was a lot of excitement because you could use the powerful Unix system (BSD ontop a Mach microkernel IIRC) but with the convenience of a UI, and speaking of UI, thanks to the choice of Objective C and it native message passing oriented logic, as a founding language throughout, the NeXT interface was fluid and dynamic. The drawback though was the price when compared with the PC tech available back then and the blooming Taiwanese suppliers for PC components.

Fast forward a little bit:

- macOs has a strong heritage from NeXT (obviously Steve Jobs infused the new ideas and concepts when brought back), and has kept the strong points of being fluid, elegant, and most of all usually well thought-out from an end user perspective (see my remark for Windows below). One thing that macOs brought to Unix in order to make it compelling for end users, and not just scientific users, is the promise that 1) the OS and its services are built with default settings in a way that "it just work", and "it is secured by default" (not judging the veracity of this, just that it is what it is imprinted through their marketing campaigns). Furthermore, macOs gives the users an easy point-and-click install and use paradigm for apps (in fact click-and-drop is more valid here). So in essence, macOs gives end user a dependable OS which is easy to use, yet strong and powerful underneath, and with an ecosystem of services to help and guide the users.

- Windows has evolved to be more and more "macOs" like in terms of user interface principles, but lacks in many ways when compared with macOs in my opinion. For example, how come Win10 is still using these "system" task related windows you can't resize... all inherited from WinNT 3.51 at least. So much stupid they are more often than not, not wide enough to show an full path with no way to scroll it either! Because of its broader adoption, there was a time were Windows was the only OS for which you could find some apps. This is important to consider when you're working with others or when you have certain needs.

- Linux has grown on its strong Unix foundations but didn't have any compelling UI thought for end users until lately. Most UI were more "technically oriented" both in their presentation (blunt or minimal) and in their content (think about this as displaying raw system data instead of user-oriented data - just a metaphor to highlight the perception I have of these). In addition, the choice of Window manager and UI is further fragmenting the user base and doesn't help broad adoption of a "standard". Not that standardization is always good, but at least it helps growing an ecosystem of users all sharing the same base.

All this to say Unix base system are in my opinion still superior to others from a scientific/computer standpoint, but they were not meant initially to be user-friendly. Windows systems were maybe less superior computer science wise, but they were thought first and foremost for ease of adoption and use (reminds you the debates with FS2020 and XP and P3D... ?). Nowadays, Unix base systems have managed to close the user friendliness gap with Windows but the offering is still fragmented and some tasks still require opening up the console... except with macOs where end-users can manage their entire computer use and admin solely via UI, except for very special needs (for which on Windows you'd also use the console/powershell though). Windows on the other end is usually still having the next best-tech-thing first, but it often poorly executes generally from a purist standpoint. However it executes adequately from an end-user standpoint otherwise it wouldn't be as widespread I guess (factoring out the immense marketing efforts to push Windows on as much computers as possible when purchasing one).

As a personal choice, I run my business and digital life on macOs only, except development which are on Windows only. Maybe it is a reason my Windows systems are stable, because they only run a handful of tools and the simulators only. Nevertheless, my macOs is very stable too, and I've not rebooted my MB for nearly a year now... 🙂

I never really invested into Linux because there is so much you can do in a day, and I never got any need to either. But these discussions are growing on me...

But at the end of the day, I find all I need for both business and personal use in my macOs system, with a hardware which is maybe not the highest you get for the price, but which is user-friendly and well thought out with neat and convenient details meant to make your daily use fluid and that you don't find in any other hardware+software combo. And if it wouldn't be for the Garmin trainer or P3D, I wouldn't even use a Windows system at all (well except maybe for some VR apps I'm using).

Just my humble opinion as a user of computer systems.

Edited November 26, 20214 yr by RXP

2 hours ago, soaring_penguin said:

it is too complicated for the average user.

Actually not really, because the

2 hours ago, soaring_penguin said:

downloading from their website

step isn't required, and downloading stuff from websites is generally a big bad for the average user. Much better just to open up discover, type steam, and click install.

What you are linking there is help for when additional system setup is still required, because the rpmfusion-nonfree repo wasn't enabled. (closed source is considered harmful by most enterprises)

Edited November 26, 20214 yr by mSparks

Doesn't Linus Torvalds (I think he might know something about the subject) basically hold that Linux (is terrible) for Joe Desktop User?

2 hours ago, Gulfstream said:

That is not representative of Linux as a desktop operating system.

It is true, that if you exclude 99% of the computers people use, tvs, mobile devices, watches, websites, network devices, game consoles etc

more people use windows computers than linux.

unless of cause you are talking about macbooks, in which case windows is also nowhere to be seen.

Not sure that is helpful to anyone other than those who need to believe windows is still important in 2021 though, especially when 1 in 5 are still using windows 7 from 2009 and 60% of new windows PCs today have a less powerfull GPU than pretty much anything mass produced by Apple, Samsung, Google or Huawei, let alone incoming devices like the Steam Deck.

I suppose that situation is a lot like those companies that make great profits, as long as you exclude all the exceptional and extraordinary items like their massive losses.

Edited November 26, 20214 yr by mSparks

Been doing a lot of testing over the past few weeks, running X-Plane 11 under Windows 10 / 11 and under a Linux Mint installation. Under Linux, especially in intensive areas like KLAX with maximum object rendering, I'm seeing a solid 10-12 or even 15FPS higher FPS, which is a lot when it's sometimes dipping under 30 on Windows. I'm really curious to see whether I see similar results under X-Plane 12, then I'd seriously consider moving permanently to Mint as my daily driver.

4 hours ago, RXP said:

Nevertheless, my macOs is very stable too, and I've not rebooted my MB for nearly a year now... 🙂

1 hour ago, Sethos said:

consider moving permanently to Mint as my daily driver.

MacOS for me was a bigger leap than Linux, because Linux was zero cost, and MacOS, well, wasn't.

OTOH, the only reason I had kept windows around for the last few years is because despite my absolute loathing of it, industry pays stupid amounts of money for MS Excel files, and Excel just doesn't work well on Linux, and libreoffice is a way off yet (close now, but still a way off, and I have switched to LibreOffice internally for almost everything but final delivery).

Then I was using a MacOS VM to build AutoATC stuff, and found to my shock and horror that everything I am used to on Linux is the same, all the C stuff the same - in some respects easier, ps command works, ls, top, ./, tab autocomplete, all the software I use for my daily driving and also Excel, bit of a learning curve on the UI, but everything I learnt I either liked or really liked.

Then, when I was pricing up what to buy when the windows laptop finally died, the Mac mini came in by far the cheapest option, so that's what I got .... about a month before Apple announced the M1.

Think I want an M1 Macbook air for Christmas, soooooo pretty, and considering the bottom of the range one will be more than enough for what I need it for not expensive. Might even be a good opportunity to wean the Mrs off windows, but also, don't really need it for anything other than when I'm OOO and testing M1 software, which makes it quite expensive.

Hmmmm, maybe I could give the Mac Mini to the niece as a Christmas present.... yeah, that might work.

 

 

3 hours ago, mSparks said:

Not sure that is helpful to anyone other than those who need to believe windows is still important in 2021 though

All you have to do is look at the official Steam statistics, from their own site, to see what the numbers are.

Linux has 1% market share and OSX has 3%.

I am also seriously doubting 5 million installs of X-Plane on Linux, but that is a topic we don't need to get into.

Windows is on 96% of gaming desktops.  And this is not "important"?

I was a heavy Linux user in the 90s.  In the 30 years since then, the Linux desktop share has declined.  

Edited November 27, 20214 yr by Gulfstream

22 minutes ago, Gulfstream said:

I am also seriously doubting 5 million installs of X-Plane on Linux, but that is a topic we don't need to get into.

I already linked you the data and sites. Android is a Linux distribution with a bundled bullet proof gui that can be written in java and kotlin.  "Android native" is just "compiled against arm linux"

17 hours ago, mSparks said:

There is a reason MSFS only had 2 million users

While Xplane was

And yep, it does have everything to do with Windows vs Linux popularity, just not the way you seem to think.

 

 

Personally, Im expecting the XP12 UI to be very similar to the current mobile version. (very much guessing/speculating there tho)

Edited November 27, 20214 yr by mSparks