Is it time to Outsource Weather Integration?

[JRBarrett 3,080]

2 hours ago, fppilot said:

Frankly, we had better live weather with the release of FSX.

Surely you jest. The weather system at the release of FSX was a simple METAR injector - much like what Rex currently does. All weather was set globally with instantaneous changes everywhere as one flew along. No fronts, no moving storm systems etc. There were no actual winds or temperatures aloft - upper winds were “emulated” by simply taking the closest surface wind, increasing the speed with altitude and rotating the direction clockwise and always using the standard ISA lapse rate for temperatures which is rarely the case in the real atmosphere.

There was no weather source at all for areas out of range of surface METAR-reporting stations - if you did a transatlantic flight from the US to Europe, your weather for the entire Atlantic crossing would be whatever the last in-range Canadian airport reported, until finally coming in range of the first European METAR reporting airport.

No question that HiFiSim (in particular) greatly improved things with ActiveSky, but that was a process that took years and years of work to bring it to the state of their current offering for P3D - it did not happen overnight.

Adding METAR-based clouds and visibility to an existing worldwide weather model of the complete atmosphere is an extremely complex undertaking. Asobo added METAR winds, temperature and pressure for airports months ago - and in general, it has worked well. That part is relatively easy because there is no visual element. They have held off until now on trying to include clouds, precip and visibility because integrating those elements with the existing model weather is probably extremely difficult - and they are probably doing so now because it is what customers have been demanding for months.

I was not in the SU7 beta, but I fully expected (and predicted over a week ago) that there would be some glitches in this first foray into adding METAR visible elements to the existing weather system, and indeed that is the case. It is going to take some time to get this right.

I have already seen some evidence today that they appear to be making some adjustments server-side specifically to the “thick haze” problem. I did a flight from DTW to RDU in the CRJ, and the visibility on landing at RDU was easily 16 to 20 miles with only very light haze. I then continued on to ATL, and again did not have “IFR haze”.

The problem with cloud bases being MSL instead of AGL might well require an update to the core sim, but the visibility (I suspect) can be adjusted on the server before being pushed to end users.

[JRBarrett 3,080]

20 minutes ago, fppilot said:

Is MeterBlue coding the integration?  Or merely providing the data feed that Asobo members are coding into the sim?  I ask that because I have been on occasion using Rex WF and Unreal Weather and it appears to me that clearly the issue in is integration, not supply of data.  And it is by no means consistent!  When one presents an issue, all three present an issue.

 

I don’t think MB is doing the integration. That would require in-depth knowledge of the internals of the sim’s graphics engine, which would not be their field of expertise. They are undoubtedly supplying the actual hourly METAR data, as that is something that any professional weather forecast organization would have access to. I suspect that Asobo supplies a spec as to what data they need, and how it should be formatted, but the actual injection into the sim environment would likely be in Asobo’s court.

[fppilot 4,385]

8 minutes ago, JRBarrett said:

Surely you jest.

I started with FSX in mid-2009 after I retired from a demanding schedule.  For two or three years I used the default live weather with great results.  Then Microsoft shut live weather down and I migrated to FSGRW and later to AS16.  Nothing in this MSFS live weather has even approached that experience until very recently.  Very, very recently!  If Asobo can quickly address the lightening and thunder overreach, and the post SU7 cloud/fog/haze overreach then I will be more satisfied.  But my point still remains. 3rd party success with previous sims was either in an inexcusable blind spot, or was in view but ignored.

[eslader 1,785]

On 11/21/2021 at 8:26 PM, fppilot said:

But my point still remains.

Except that it really doesn't, because FSX default weather was terrible in comparison to what we have now, both in accuracy and visual depiction. We forget that until fairly recently, you couldn't even fly into a cloud. You flew from clear skies to instant zero-visibility, because there was no smooth transition as you entered the outer edges of the cloud. There was absolutely nothing about FSX weather that was better than what we have in MSFS. I do not at all miss the days of 2-dimensional oddly shrunken Cb clouds, or clouds of all types that spun crazily as you got near them because the system was trying to keep the texture oriented in the one position where it might sorta kinda fool you that you were looking at something that wasn't totally flat.

We all have a tendency to upconvert old games/systems in our minds. I remember absolutely loving the first Deus Ex when it came out. Played the heck out of that thing. I grabbed a copy the other day just for nostalgia purposes, and found it nearly unplayable. The graphics were vastly worse than I remembered, and the mechanics were god-awful by comparison to today's stuff. I'm spoiled by what modern games, including the newer Deus Ex releases, can do.

We falsely remember more positively than deserved with a lot of things, not just computer stuff. People complain about modern sport compact cars: "My CRX was faster!"  Well, no, it wasn't unless you swapped the engine with something beastly. But it felt faster to your teenaged self, and you're misremembering exactly how slow those things were in comparison to modern cars.

I'll happily concede that there are things ActiveSky does better - sometimes much better - in P3d than MSFS does currently, which is why I'd love for MS to open up the weather system to 3rd party development. But stock FSX weather couldn't hold a candle to what MSFS is doing.

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by eslader

[scotchegg 4,198]

2 minutes ago, eslader said:

Except that it really doesn't

Exactly what I was going to say. More like his point was competently and comprehensively rebutted.

[michaelray 236]

21 minutes ago, eslader said:

 

I'll happily concede that there are things ActiveSky does better - sometimes much better - in P3d than MSFS does currently, which is why I'd love for MS to open up the weather system to 3rd party development. But stock FSX weather couldn't hold a candle to what MSFS is doing.

 

Yes that sums it up perfectly.

[March Hare 720]

1 hour ago, eslader said:

I'll happily concede that there are things ActiveSky does better - sometimes much better - in P3d than MSFS does currently,

Out of interest (legitimately, because I'm unfamiliar with P3D and Active Sky), what does it do better and how? I've had a quick look at HiFi's website, but not too in-depth -- and sometimes you don't really get a good impression without using the software.

[RALF9636 1,971]

6 hours ago, March Hare said:

Out of interest (legitimately, because I'm unfamiliar with P3D and Active Sky), what does it do better and how? I've had a quick look at HiFi's website, but not too in-depth -- and sometimes you don't really get a good impression without using the software.

Apart from the obvious bugs that were introduced in SU7:

- abrupt visibility changes

- clouds intersecting with ground

- overdone haze

- excessive thunder and lightning (already before SU7)

here are some fundamental features I remember from ActiveSky in P3D that are sorely missing in MSFS:

- cirrus clouds

- plausible depiction of any visibility from 0 to 200 miles

- thermal updrafts and downdrafts

- immersive in-cloud turbulence

- wake turbulence (not sure if that has been implemented now for the Air Races?)

- historic weather (which can automatically synchronize with the in-sim date and time)

- option to set minimum or maximum caps for specific parameters like cloud ceiling, visibility or winds, so live or historic weather can easily be modified for the kind of flight you want to do

- option to set different custom weather for different areas

- a comprehensive user interface with a map and a search function that let's you find specific weather around the world or check the weather at any location worldwide with one click - not only for live weather but also for historic and custom weather - allowing for an easy weather briefing / planning

- weather can be read from the sim, so METAR / ATIS can correspond with what actually is in the sim

- also third parties can read the weather from the sim to include weather related features in their products, like a weather radar that shows the weather that really is in the sim

 

There's probably more but these came to my mind easily.

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by RALF9636

[jcomm 5,939]

I fully agree with the OP and it's really a shame that, using a feed like the one provided by Meteoblue they haven't yet found the way to use it properly.

It results from the fact that whoever is developing MFS doesn't really know much even about basic stuff in day-2-day aviation. They try to incorporate really interesting stuff, and visually it looks great, but they don't have a clue about stuff as basic as the cloud bases reported in METAR being AGL, probably ( I haven't cecked ) that the winds there reported also refer to True North...

They should really have oppened the weather engine to those who know how to do it very well. That's in good part why ( together with poor and inconsistent / incomplete / undocumented flight dynamics ) I have moved back to P3D, and will wait for the announced "gliders" and see what theyt do with it.

Heck, MFS s so beautiful graphically !

Edited November 24, 2021 by jcomm

[Afterburner 374]

On 11/22/2021 at 4:30 AM, JRBarrett said:

There is no question that HiFi are experts on how to integrate weather data from disparate sources into a flight simulator - but their expertise in in FSX, P3D and X-Plane. The techniques they use in those platforms will not work in MSFS. As much as everyone would like the weather system to be “opened up to outside developers” I don’t think that is ever going to happen. Doing so would probably require access to the internals and source code of the sim itself as well as MeteoBlue’s intellectual property, which Microsoft would be in no position to offer to an outside developer. 

How do you know that the "techniques they use in those platforms will not work in MSFS" if the unrestricted access to weather is sealed to 3rd party weather add-ons?  To make that claim would require one to know the internals of the sim's weather engine.

The guys at HiFi have over 20 years of experience, and so far they have been able to push the weather depiction to the limits of all sims (including X-Plane). Remember how they overcame the problem with sudden changes in wind direction in FSX with the release of Active Sky Next in year 2013 - something that other weather programs failed at?  Yes, right now their expertise is in the sims you mentioned, but if MS opened up to them, I am sure that they would make a heck out of the weather in MSFS, which may look lovely under some conditions, but still lacks in consistency.

[roi1862 602]

Currently i cant get any live-weather whatsoever. All clear sky everywhere, no matter how many time i restart the sim. Its just bad...

[fppilot 4,385]

5 hours ago, RALF9636 said:

There's probably more but these came to my mind easily.

Did you ever try REX cloud textures in tandem with AS16?

[JRBarrett 3,080]

4 hours ago, Afterburner said:

How do you know that the "techniques they use in those platforms will not work in MSFS" if the unrestricted access to weather is sealed to 3rd party weather add-ons?  To make that claim would require one to know the internals of the sim's weather engine.

The guys at HiFi have over 20 years of experience, and so far they have been able to push the weather depiction to the limits of all sims (including X-Plane). Remember how they overcame the problem with sudden changes in wind direction in FSX with the release of Active Sky Next in year 2013 - something that other weather programs failed at?  Yes, right now their expertise is in the sims you mentioned, but if MS opened up to them, I am sure that they would make a heck out of the weather in MSFS, which may look lovely under some conditions, but still lacks in consistency.

I don’t “know” how the weather internals of MSFS work, but looking at the complexity and dynamic nature of clouds in the sim when Live Weather is active makes it obvious (to me) that they are using far more complex techniques to place clouds than what is available in previous sims. This is especially evident if you look at a time lapse video of Live Weather clouds taken from a fixed location. They not only move with the wind, but you can see individual clouds smoothly and continuously grow and expand, or shrink and dissipate as they move. I have also seen low level clouds move in one direction with prevailing winds, while higher clouds move a different direction. This is very common in r/w weather, since wind direction shifts with increasing altitude, and it points to the fact that in Live Weather, multiple wind layers can exist and be active simultaneously, even when the aircraft is still on the ground - something that does not happen in previous MS sims. It appears that the weather injection is interwoven with the core graphics engine of the sim in a way that goes above and beyond what has been done before, and that the entire atmospheric emulation (from the surface to high altitude) is much more complex - and probably tightly linked to the internal structure of MeteoBlue’s proprietary weather model.

[Nyxx 6,993]

I really like reading your replys Jim,I always feel more informed afterwards. Thank you for being here on AVSIM.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Nyxx

[March Hare 720]

I think @JRBarrettis correct, and I was going to say essentially the same thing.

Thank you for outlining HiFi's work in the other sims. I was really looking for feature comparison, rather than stability (i.e. bugs, which Asobo will be working to resolve).

It's clear HiFi have done a great job with weather in other platforms. It appears to me that historical weather is arguably the big differential. Asobo's global weather system was working very well, and they are aiming to improve it and add more to it.

I do think it's unlikely they will open it up -- or not in the way that people might hope or expect, compared to how it's been done in other sims before.

Asobo's weather/atmospherics simulation is a proprietary engine, and quite technologically innovative and advanced compared to previous simulators' weather systems. It features, for one thing, particle-based volumetric clouds, and that is just one new, but fundamentally different, aspect of it.

Some of what HiFi appears to have done involves introducing new cloud texture packs to replace default ones with better looking 2D sprite-based clouds. That wouldn't work with Asobo's engine. HiFi have recently started working with volumetric clouds, it appears, but those clouds are already behind what Asobo have developed -- and not to mention the fact HiFi have licensed that software from a third-party themselves, not developed it in-house, suggesting they don't have the level of development expertise that Asobo do (it's one thing to mod something with a SDK, but a different skillset to create something from the ground up).

Could HiFi learn the ins and outs of working with Asobo's engine if Asobo (well, Microsoft, in part) allow and enable access via the SDK? Yes, given time, because Asobo would introduce the necessary tools to alter certain things, although it wouldn't be low-level access, so might be inherently limited. But I suspect Asobo could really evolve their own weather systems faster than a third-party could enhance it; I don't think a third-party would be able to jump in, take one look, do some modding and give everyone an enhanced version of Asobo's weather quickly.

Re some of the features: I think Asobo have just introduced wake turbulence with Reno. I'm pretty sure they already have turbulence in clouds (I've certainly experienced it when entering certain clouds).

Abrupt changes while flying are new and an unfortunate consequence of them introducing new data, i.e. METAR vs Meteoblue forecasting, but they can smooth that out hopefully.

I don't see excessive lightning any more, but again that's a bug...

Maybe I'm misunderstanding (probably), but you can already manipulate weather, cloud layers, etc., to your own conditions wherever you are flying in the world (again, if it's lacking in some way now, Asobo can enhance it based on feedback).

I think with regards to weather radars in aircraft, you might start seeing this appear in aircraft developed by their partners, like PMDG, who will have special access and support from Asobo.

Either way, we can all speculate, but time will tell. I don't think opening up weather in some way was entirely ruled out... I don't recall them saying no, never, exactly... But the work involved expanding the SDK to allow manipulation of weather is probably better spent, at the moment, on developing their proprietary weather and atmospherics system themselves.

Who knows, maybe they will partner with HiFi someday, at least to bring in the historic weather features.

Time will tell. And maybe we'll be proven right, or wrong, or some mixture of the two.

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by March Hare