7 minutes ago, w6kd said:

To be fair, though, one has to wonder what PMDG's DC-6 sales would have looked like in a market with many more options

Exactly what I was thinking.

1 hour ago, raymar said:

Yep. Same old story - 9 women can't have a baby in a month.

Ray

True...however...I'm afraid to ask however since when is software development similar to human gestation? 😂

10 hours ago, abrams_tank said:

it's a no brainer ...

 

 

Are you saying that devs still working on other platforms have no brains?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. 🙂

26 minutes ago, bofhlusr said:

Are you saying that devs still working on other platforms have no brains?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. 🙂

There were probably developers who followed Blackberry to its dying days and refused to jump ship to IPhone or Android, until RIM (the maker of Blackberry) stopped making the Blackberry.

The smart developers for Blackberry saw the winds changing on the release of IPhone and jumped ship much earlier.

3 hours ago, w6kd said:

When you're the only girl at the dance, the fact of your incredible popularity there isn't that remarkable.

But then again she wasn't the only girl at the dance...'
Mathias from Aerosoft said about the CRJ sales, "From the publishers point of view... sales are very very strong. I can tell you some glasses were raised."

40 minutes ago, bofhlusr said:

Are you saying that devs still working on other platforms have no brains?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. 🙂

I mean, if you are a developer of Sim Add On products, and you shun MSFS... one has to wonder. 

1 hour ago, abrams_tank said:

There were probably developers who followed Blackberry to its dying days and refused to jump ship to IPhone or Android, until RIM (the maker of Blackberry) stopped making the Blackberry.

The smart developers for Blackberry saw the winds changing on the release of IPhone and jumped ship much earlier.

Wishful thinking, fact is x-plane sales are barely touched as well as the addons. If someone is already making enough money and chooses to focus on those current loyal customers it makes total sense. Don't worry about x-plane 3rd party, some of them are making very nice $$$ both of us can dream of.

Future wise, there is still a hype to come when x-plane 12 released that + a native steamDeck version.

Also the reasons for pmdg not fully adopting x-plane has little to do with sales more like they wanted sdk tools that are non-cross platform (windows only) which a big no no in the x-plane eco-system. Lastly pmdg has obvious interest praising their current focus platform, back then they also mentioned x-plane team as helpfull and great look how it ended up.

1 hour ago, mtaxp said:

Wishful thinking, fact is x-plane sales are barely touched as well as the addons. If someone is already making enough money and chooses to focus on those current loyal customers it makes total sense. Don't worry about x-plane 3rd party, some of them are making very nice $$$ both of us can dream of.

Future wise, there is still a hype to come when x-plane 12 released that + a native steamDeck version.

Also the reasons for pmdg not fully adopting x-plane has little to do with sales more like they wanted sdk tools that are non-cross platform (windows only) which a big no no in the x-plane eco-system. Lastly pmdg has obvious interest praising their current focus platform, back then they also mentioned x-plane team as helpfull and great look how it ended up.

I didn't even mention XP in my comment, you brought it up first. For all you know, I could have been referring to P3D.

But since you brought up XP in my comment about Blackberry, I want to add that Blackberry sales actually went up after the release of IPhone in 2007, before they tanked hard:

And yes, Blackberry came out with a new version after IPhone was released, to try to fend off IPhone. Still, it didn't change the ultimate decline of Blackberry.

I think the XP12 screenshots looks pretty good and XP12 is starting to look modern.  But there is still a huge technological gap between MSFS and XP 12, specifically with the streaming of satellite & photogrammetry (and a company like Blackshark AI converting the 2D satellite objects to 3D objects).  With respect to FPS, it remains to be seen what XP 12's final FPS will be, but can XP 12 match the 60 FPS some people get in MSFS at 4K Ultra?

IMO, XP 12 is still chasing MSFS just like Blackberry was chasing the IPhone.  Perhaps XP will survive in the PC home market.  Perhaps it will not.  But IMO, the winds are against XP right now, whereas when Microsoft abandoned FSX back around 2009/2010, the winds were for XP.

Edited November 23, 20214 yr by abrams_tank

15 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

I didn't even mention XP in my comment, you brought it up first. For all you know, I could have been referring to P3D.

Discussion was why some x-plane developers are not following the MSFS trend, so it does not take you mentioning x-plane in this specific comment.

Quote

 I want to add that Blackberry sales actually went up after the release of IPhone in 2007, before they tanked hard:

You've been doing that for a about a year and a half now yet I will tell you again that this is merely wishful thinking as both examples are totally different markets that can't draw conclusions and reflect on each other.

Facts are simple; x-plane's eco system is growing even now, with more 3rd party quality planes coming out and in-development for x-plane even more than MSFS. And this is while many people are very hesitant to invest in x-plane 11 since they are uncertain of the fate of their products in v12.

Why is that happening? simple, instead of posting irrelevant blackberry charts, have you considered you are just WRONG? yeah, a shocking possibility indeed. While MSFS may be more lucrative for some, x-plane is still (as some very known developers claimed) , and will become, even more lucrative for those 3rd party developers that you are eager to join your parade, hence they chose to stay at the x-plane realm and yet, although the only data you have is this same blackberry chart, you still somehow conclude those developers are all wrong in their choice just because PMDG claim what they claim. PMDG claimed lots of good stuff about x-plane back then as well, just as an FYI. it's called an interest and their CEO is a master in this communication indeed.

Lastly, you are choosing to focus on the PC platform only as matter of convince. Stats are even more shocking; x-plane mobile+PC has more users than MSFS PC+XBOX (by 2-3X times if not more!), and x-plane is coming in the future natively to Steam Deck with a possibility for another market for 3rd party developers.

So if actual stats suggest you are wrong, 3rd party developers obviously as well then you are...? Oh yeah, but "blackberry".

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, mtaxp said:

Why is that happening? simple, instead of posting irrelevant blackberry charts, have you considered you are just WRONG? 

Nope.  I was pessimistic about the P3D market for home users.  The P3D market imploded over the last year for home users, with many 3rd party devs leaving P3D.  I wasn't wrong about that. And if you read my words carefully, I am saying the winds are against XP.  

Quote

Lastly, you are choosing to focus on the PC platform only as matter of convince. Stats are even more shocking; x-plane mobile+PC has more users than MSFS PC+XBOX (by 2-3X times if not more!), and x-plane is coming in the future natively to Steam Deck with a possibility for another market for 3rd party developers.

So if actual stats suggest you are wrong, 3rd party developers obviously as well then you are...? Oh yeah, but "blackberry".

<Sigh>.  Another "mobile" argument from a devoted XP follower. I don't really care about the mobile market as I have been focusing on the PC home market the entire time.  Sure, XP can take the entire mobile market.  It doesn't meant they can't or won't fail in the PC market.

Edited November 23, 20214 yr by abrams_tank

7 hours ago, w6kd said:

To be fair, though, one has to wonder what PMDG's DC-6 sales would have looked like in a market with many more options.

That's the benefit of the early adopters. Still, those numbers are insane considering the timespan.

23 minutes ago, mtaxp said:

Discussion was why some x-plane developers are not following the MSFS trend, so it does not take you mentioning x-plane in this specific comment.

You've been doing that for a about a year and a half now yet I will tell you again that this is merely wishful thinking as both examples are totally different markets that can't draw conclusions and reflect on each other.

Facts are simple; x-plane's eco system is growing even now, with more 3rd party quality planes coming out and in-development for x-plane even more than MSFS. And this is while many people are very hesitant to invest in x-plane 11 since they are uncertain of the fate of their products in v12.

Why is that happening? simple, instead of posting irrelevant blackberry charts, have you considered you are just WRONG? yeah, a shocking possibility indeed. While MSFS may be more lucrative for some, x-plane is still (as some very known developers claimed) , and will become, even more lucrative for those 3rd party developers that you are eager to join your parade, hence they chose to stay at the x-plane realm and yet, although the only data you have is this same blackberry chart, you still somehow conclude those developers are all wrong in their choice just because PMDG claim what they claim. PMDG claimed lots of good stuff about x-plane back then as well, just as an FYI. it's called an interest and their CEO is a master in this communication indeed.

Lastly, you are choosing to focus on the PC platform only as matter of convince. Stats are even more shocking; x-plane mobile+PC has more users than MSFS PC+XBOX (by 2-3X times if not more!), and x-plane is coming in the future natively to Steam Deck with a possibility for another market for 3rd party developers.

So if actual stats suggest you are wrong, 3rd party developers obviously as well then you are...? Oh yeah, but "blackberry".

 

 

 

It's also worth noting that Blackberry wasn't killed by a single competitor, it was killed by iOS and Android together.

55 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

<Sigh>.  Another "mobile" argument from a devoted XP follower. I don't really care about the mobile market as I have been focusing on the PC home market the entire time.  Sure, XP can take the entire mobile market.  It doesn't meant they can't or won't fail in the PC market.

You may not care about the mobile market but that doesn't stop it absolutely dwarfing flight simming in general.

If XPlane on mobile devices draws even a small percentage of its users into the PC XP eco system that will keep it running very happily (MSFS has excatly the same thing with the XB version).

P3D seems pretty much dead in the water (as a consumer sim), but XP doesn't seem to be going that way yet.
It's a topic to perhaps revisit once XP12 is out.

Edited November 23, 20214 yr by Matchstick

9 minutes ago, Matchstick said:

You may not care about the mobile market but that doesn't stop it absolutely dwarfing flight simming in general.

If XPlane on mobile devices draws even a small percentage of its users into the PC XP eco system that will keep it running very happily (MSFS has excatly the same thing with the XB version).

P3D seems pretty much dead in the water, but XP doesn't seem to be going that way yet.
It's a topic to perhaps revisit once XP12 is out.

Yes.  At the same time, don't count out MSFS entering the mobile space, especially with cloud services and the ability to play MSFS across the cloud (meaning it's the power of the graphics card and CPU of the cloud server that MSFS is running on that matters, not the hardware of the mobile phone).

Like I said, IMO, the winds are against XP right now at this time, in the PC home market.  It doesn't mean XP will fail in the PC market, but IMO, I think the winds are against XP.  Compare this to 2009/2010 when the winds were for XP when Microsoft abandoned FSX.  Preferably, you want to winds for you, not against you.

Edited November 23, 20214 yr by abrams_tank

1 hour ago, abrams_tank said:

<Sigh>.  Another "mobile" argument from a devoted XP follower. I don't really care about the mobile market as I have been focusing on the PC home market the entire time.  Sure, XP can take the entire mobile market.  It doesn't meant they can't or won't fail in the PC market.

And this is why you are wrong. You don't care about the mobile market yet LR and MS as well very much care about those non-PC markets, they are times bigger than PC. 

Mobile market means so much more than you think for a PC version as well, in fact x-plane it self is proving that. Just to mention, 5m+ on android ONLY. more than 2x than MSFS on all platforms. 

If some of those are drawn to PC in x-plane 12 it means everything.

And steam deck is coming as well, by it self will probably have a much bigger market than XBOX.

38 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

Compare this to 2009/2010 when the winds were for XP when Microsoft abandoned FSX.  Preferably, you want to winds for you, not against you.

No, back then the new shiny toy was P3D actually as a direct successor to fsx (released late 2010), most 3rd parties for fsx transitioned to P3D.

x-plane back then was still not even considered as a viable option by many, in expos the discussion was does flight simulation even has a future!

And if getting back to PMDG, they released their DC-6 while no one actually thought its a good option (they knew that! hence claimed to not judge future development by how the DC6 sales), at very late x-plane 10 run while people were hesitant to buy it while x-plane 11 was pending (i.e. the same case as now). PMDG didn't even update their product to x-plane 11...threatening LR to leave their market if not introducing the windows only SDK changes... All the winds were against x-plane including the "big players" in the market that thought they can come to x-plane in order to totally control it's development and demand stuff from LR. Milviz is another horror story btw in how they handled x-plane back then, read about it, and how both PMDG and Milviz pretty much were shown the door out of the x-plane realm.

Now look how stuff turned out.

Edited November 23, 20214 yr by mtaxp