3 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I’m not into “hope” … that ship sailed a long tIme ago.  We disagree, let’s move on.

Cheers Rob

I recall, for you the the MSFS ship been sailed long before MSFS actual release (the folks who are frequent in MSFS forums will know what I mean 😉). 

4 hours ago, psolk said:

I'm not anti P3D or Asobo but I do "hope" Asobo get it right and we get all our P3D add-on functionality in the base sim they built

My gut says it isn't Asobo we need to apply hope to, it's MS.  There's a very clear (to me) case of tactical coding brilliance being hamstrung in delivering the functionality by a different strategic management direction.  

10 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Absolutely agree ... and it is a sign of a small development team and no idea where the 200 person resources claim came from ... perhaps add up all the different people up over 5 years that may have touched MSFS at one point?  If this were a larger project there would tiered technical liaison (tech support engineer) between end users and the project manager who would coordinate feedback with the core developers.  Developers get paid a lot of money to code, not to field questions and do PR.

I too am skeptical of the '200 developers' claim. According to their Wikipedia entry, Asobo has 220 employees total, which would mean all but 20 people were actively developing MSFS. That doesn't leave a lot of people to, you know, do other products, or run the company. I suspect the 200-person number includes everyone who works on the project in any capacity for any % of their time, and may also include Microsoft people or third party resources. I suspect the core team actually delivering features is rather smaller and is overloaded. 

The real heart of the issue, I think, is the combination of two things: Xbox, and the update schedule. They set themselves a hugely ambitious goal to have a significant monthly or bi-monthly update to a game of this complexity. I don't think people really understand the amount of work that goes into an update cycle like this. It's not that Asobo's developers or testers are incompetent; it's that they don't have enough time to test their software well enough to find the regressions (stuff they broke that used to work) or new bugs, and not enough time to fix them even when they do find them. So they deliver broken code in their updates because it's either that or not meet the schedule, and you can imagine what the forums would be like if they didn't. And that's on top of the pressure to deliver new features both from the roadmap and for the big bang stuff that Microsoft wants to market the game with (Reno Air Races, Top Gun etc etc), which holds back other things that ought to have priority (SDK development). How can the SDK team get on and deliver when the core sim is changing as rapidly as it is?

And then there's Xbox. The requirement to have as close to parity as possible in the base product between PC and Xbox will be adding a huge overhead to the development effort for both PC and Xbox. What other Xbox game has a significant third-party developer marketplace other than just DLC skins etc? I presume, like other developers on Xbox, Asobo are using the PC-based tools to develop and initially test it, and then running it out to Microsoft's Xbox test lab for platform testing, and we already know that this model breaks stuff left right and center. Developing on what amounts to an emulator for a platform is never as good as developing against the actual platform. 

In my (not so) humble opinion, this project has become too big for a company the size of Asobo to manage effectively given the aggressive timelines that the product owner, Microsoft, appears to be insisting on. On the face of it, it seems like an absolutely classic case of a software project that has developed far too much momentum to stop and do the right thing, which would be to pause all new feature development until they squash the bugs and get the current feature set working as close to 100% as possible, then resume new feature work at a sustainable pace. 

That's what my gut tells me, based on what I can see of the output from Asobo, and 25 years in the software industry. I could be wrong, I may have entirely the wrong picture of how things work inside the project, maybe they have tons of time and just don't care about breaking things. But I know developers, so I doubt that. I suspect they are as frustrated as we are. But they can't admit that. The avalanche has started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.

@neilhewitt Very well said.  I have seen my own company do a feature freeze 2 years into a new code train release because quite honestly it was an acquisition and in the rush to get it re-branded and released the core bugs/issues were never addressed.  2 years in they did exactly what you said and froze all feature releases for 6 months to clean up the mess.   The entire feature roadmap was scrapped and re-established once the core code was stabilized.  It was a quite ugly period as a seller but 3 years the memories of that debacle remain... I can't disagree with anything you wrote, very well thought out, non-emotional and spoken without speculation or accusation.  

7 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I’m not into “hope” … that ship sailed a long tIme ago.  We disagree, let’s move on.

Cheers Rob

OK, then I don't "hope" that things turn around for you " so you can get your MSFS project released, get some revenue and perhaps turn things a bit more to the positive...."   I guess my olive branch was nothing more than a broken twig.

You're right, we do disagree even though I agree with and acknowledge a lot of what you say because you seem to be only scouring my posts for the negative to disagree with and selectively quote out of context.  So yes, time to move on.  

4 hours ago, kevinfirth said:

My gut says it isn't Asobo we need to apply hope to, it's MS.  There's a very clear (to me) case of tactical coding brilliance being hamstrung in delivering the functionality by a different strategic management direction.  

You could very well be spot on that the MS deadlines/expectations is the root cause.  Unfortunately I don't have insight as to whether it's MS demanding it, Asobo overpromising and underdelivering or both.   The DC6 having to be pulled and refunds given is a HUGE miss on both parts.  Is it the horse driving the cart or the cart in front of the horse that's the issue 🙂  All we know is right now they are both off the tracks and need to right themselves, get the blinders on, put these issues behind them and drive forward. 

Hopefully they can because as I said earlier, my largest concern is Asobo fails and that is the last straw in Flight simulation.  They have been the shot in the arm a lot of developers need.  The ramifications of them failing concern me greatly beyond just sticking with P3D.  I feel it could be a negative tipping point for FS that the hobby may not recover from hence "hoping" they do manage to get it right!  

Nvidia actually releasing a driver that addresses MSFS specific issues is a great example of the visibility Asobo has brought to simming, we didn't have Nvidia caring much about P3D hence users trying to figure out Device Hung issues on their own.  I mean Nvidia is actually paying attention to Flight Simulators, that's great from my perspective.  These are some of the intangibles MSFS has delivered and again why I do hope they succeed for the larger hobby.   We have Boeing licensed HW now from Thrustmaster, people outside our core niche of simmers are actually paying attention now, articles are popping up, people outside the circle are actually aware Flight Simmers exist and I don't think any of that happens without MSFS.  

Edited December 21, 20214 yr by psolk

1 hour ago, neilhewitt said:

That's what my gut tells me

On the balance of probabilities, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.

It seems to me that you can't have a highly sophisticated flight simulator that also runs on an Xbox, they are very different markets / platforms.

Edited December 21, 20214 yr by simfan1983

3 minutes ago, simfan1983 said:

It seems to me that you can't have a highly sophisticated flight simulator that also runs on an Xbox, they are very different markets / platforms.

Certainly not easily. Of course, the strategic direction MS are focussing on is obviously the latter.  Wouldn’t it be ironic if PC simming on MSFS became a niche by-product of the drive for Xbox revenue.  Heaven forbid, it would be almost analogous to PC simming on P3D being a niche by-product of professional flight simulation 😛

back to @neilhewitt’s assessment earlier, what would be the implications for MS of a pause for consolidation? Loss of excitement in the product? A potential reduction in user base? Loss of revenue? A shift in market balance towards other platforms?  It would likely be dependent on the length of time spent consolidating and the outcomes from that.

Perhaps the best approach for them would be to not stop feature development completely but slow down the development cycle?  I’m not a software developer so I’ll leave the assessment of that to those that are!

I suspect MS are not interested in the pc market and will not be prepared to waste resources on that, so a pause in pc development is possible IMO, especially if their project has gone significantly over budget. The current add-on developers can jump ship and move over to MSFS XBox but there will remain a core of wealthy pc based flight simmers who want the best, and that is only available on P3D and potentially XP12 for the time being. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out but I don't think MSFS will be viable for simulating real world large jet flying for at least 2 years.

Edited December 21, 20214 yr by simfan1983

Guys,

Lets bring this thread home - lets talk about the annoying issues that PMDG is doing for us P3D users by delaying the updates.  Man, if a sim is stable and your selling products just keep on updating it (heck P3D gets updated every 6 months approx)....and V6 is probably summer of 2022.  At least you can keep getting sales...

Sigh, I will be leery of buying anymore PMDG products for MSFS (I am sure the eye candy will be epic, and I will give in but we will see, all other players get first pick with my wallet that is for sure).

 

 

Edited December 21, 20214 yr by Skywolf

They had said in the past that the max was done or close to it, but not released because of the issues Boeing was having with the plane in real life.  But now that it has been back in service for a while one would think they could release it if they wanted to.  Also knowing they put their chips on MSFS, then had to pull back I would think now would be a great time for them to sell the max in p3d and get some cash flow again.  But I'm sure they have their reasons why not. 

11 minutes ago, micstatic said:

They had said in the past that the max was done or close to it, but not released because of the issues Boeing was having with the plane in real life.  But now that it has been back in service for a while one would think they could release it if they wanted to.  Also knowing they put their chips on MSFS, then had to pull back I would think now would be a great time for them to sell the max in p3d and get some cash flow again.  But I'm sure they have their reasons why not. 

I've bought the NGX essentially 3 times, I don't even fly it enough to look at their longer haul birds, so I'm unlikely to buy anything else from PMDG on any platform.

I've enough other study level stuff on P3D to keep me occupied for as much time as I can devote to it, mostly A2A and Majestic, and also the Milviz KingAir 350.  Added to that I've been quite tickled by some other stuff, like the newly updated VRS F18.

So PMDG and their delays are pretty much an irrelevance to me now I'm afraid.  The one aircraft I would have liked to see was the Milviz C130J... RIP

It is pleasure to read the arguments put forward by Rob.He knows very well that it is related to Simulator. The others do not know enough and try to prove to the expert (Rob) that they are right in what they say.In a few words Rob 1,Others 0

 

 

And life goes on

   Georgio

3 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

And how's that working out for them?  🙂  I get it, telling people what they want to hear and believe is better for business ... but facts are facts, where are the PMDG's, the FSLabs, the A2As, the Majestic, the Maddog for MSFS?  Why are their still so many bugs in MSFS that those same people who frequent MSFS forums complain about?  It's not a contest.

And P3Dv5 has so many bugs same as XP11 same as MSFS 😉. You can't expect a software like MSFS to support everything from day 1, or bugs free from day 1 (is there even a bug free software?). it will take time, just like P3D, just like XP. Sooner or later we will see more and more high fidelity add-ones, if not from those you mentioned, then new ones will come, is just matters of patience.

However, if you eager to change things in MSFS, why don't you just apply in Asobo? They have plenty of openings 😉 

3 minutes ago, omarsmak30 said:

And P3Dv5 has so many bugs same as XP11 same as MSFS 😉. You can't expect a software like MSFS to support everything from day 1, or bugs free from day 1 (is there even a bug free software?). it will take time, just like P3D, just like XP. Sooner or later we will see more and more high fidelity add-ones, if not from those you mentioned, then new ones will come, is just matters of patience.

However, if you eager to change things in MSFS, why don't you just apply in Asobo? They have plenty of openings 😉 

It's not day 1.  Far from it.  That's the point. 

34 minutes ago, omarsmak30 said:

Sooner or later we will see more and more high fidelity add-ones, if not from those you mentioned, then new ones will come, is just matters of patience.

Another crystal ball statement. Please please..In my opinion.

Edited December 21, 20214 yr by Adrian123