1 hour ago, birdguy said:

so you think its okay to extinguish an animals life if its a fun sport?

I enjoyed when I was able to do it. 

 

I'm stunned. So when the bullet ripped through the animals body, you thought "this is great, I'm enjoying this"? Hope not!

 

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

How do you feel about hunting birds?  That takes a great deal of skill hitting a bird in flight.  How about fishing?  That also takes skill.  Do you think lift a fish out of the water and clubbing it on the head to kill it is wrong?

 

What  has skill got to do with it. If its for food, fine, but for just sport, its not fine. Life is important, precious, a miracle, its not something we should snuff out of exitance for fun, for sport, for a laugh. 

Its no wonder mankind is destroying the planet and devastating species if we think its awesome to kill animals unnecessarily. 

 

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

How do you feel about people who work in slaughter houses killing cattle, pigs, sheep and I don't know about the UK, but also horses in France?  It's OK for them to look at an animal in the face and kill it so you can have food on the table?  Leather for your jacket?  Furs for your woman's coat?

 

As usual you are ignoring what I previously said. 🙄  Again... if its for food fine, but if its for "sport" not to eat, no its not fine. Again, I said that "what disturbs me is when people gain pleasure from killing an animal... because its hunting, a sport, fun to them. 

 

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

I had a neighbor who was like you and asked me how I could kill Bambi.  But he always accept the venison or duck or pheasant I have him.

 

 Again, the point is, how did you feel when that bullet killed the animal? Did you experience pleasure? Or was it an unpleasant experience but you had to do it to eat. Did you feel nothing? 

 

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

Man has been killing animals for food forever.  Some of us enjoy it for sport and recreation.  If you have a problem with that it's your problem not mine.  If you are trying to make those of us who enjoy hunting feel bad about it you are spitting up the wrong tree.

 

I'm not trying to make anybody feel bad. But yes, these are difficult questions to contemplate. Its not relevant how long man has been killing animals, man did so to survive, a justified reason. Again, I don't have a problem with it because I eat meat, thus it would be hypocritical. What I have a problem with is "gaining pleasure" out of the act of killing an animal and killing for "fun", destroying life, for "sport" when its not necessary.

If I had to kill an animal to survive, because I needed the food, I would do it, but I wouldn't gain pleasure out of it. My emotional response would be diametrically opposed to pleasure. 

 

Edited March 1, 20224 yr by martin-w

22 hours ago, birdguy said:

t makes all the difference when you hire a 'hit man' doesn't it Martin?

 

You have taken that out of context. The point, is that if I had to kill an animal to survive I would, but I wouldn't gain pleasure out of the act of destroying a life. Do I have a higher regard for life than you. We should have empathy and place yourself in the animals shoes.

 

Quote

This might enlighten some animal-lovers.  I don't know if they love animals or hate hunters, but they become problem when overpopulation of game animals and birds is present.  Perhaps they would rather see an animal or bird starve to death rather than see it humanely shot.

 

You are missing the point again. If animals have to be culled due to overpopulation and detriment to the species (usually due to mankind's interference) or to feed human beings then fine. Its killing for sport only not food and for pleasure and a person finding the killing of an animal pleasurable that disturbs me, it's primitive, Its quite simple. 

 

Quote

 never hunted except for the table.  And in that sense I have killed a lot of animals and birds and caught hundreds of fish.  Our freezer always had trout in it.

 

That's absolutely fine then. But if you ENJOYED the act of killing the animal, that wouldn't be fine, it would be weird. Or you did it for SPORT not out of necessity tI  wouldn't find that fine. 

Edited March 1, 20224 yr by martin-w

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

If its for food, fine, but for just sport,

It's for both.  I never shoot anything I am not going to eat.  But I enjoy going outdoors and stalking my prey either walking through the woods trying to find a five point buck or walking through a recently harvested cornfield (with the farmer's permission) and flushing up a dove or pheasant or wading a stream with my flyrod casting for trout.  Yes I enjoy killing my prey with one shot.  It gives me great satisfaction.

Oh Martin!  You're going to hate this.  I once spotted a nice buck a little over a hundred yards away.  I took the shot anyway and downed him.  But it wasn't a kill shot.  It was on the ground struggling.  I got in the pickup and drove to where it was and put that lead into the back of it's head and killed it.  Then I took it to the butcher to clean and dress and hang it for a while and then cut it up and wrap the pieces for the freezer.  I can still taste that venison.  Not as tasty as a prime rib but not bad either.  The kids loved it.  So did Betty.  It lasted about 6 months and she didn't have to go to the butcher shop so often to buy steaks and pork and lamb chops somebody else killed.

Noel

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

That's absolutely fine then. But if you ENJOYED the act of killing the animal, that wouldn't be fine, it would be weird. Or you did it for SPORT not out of necessity tI  wouldn't find that fine. 

I ENJOY the SPORT.  How bad of a person does that make me?

You and I come different environments.  I got my first gun when I was about 12 years old.  My aunt and uncle had a small ranch near Salinas.  That's where I learned to hunt starting out with my dad and uncle.  Later walking the treeline alone just being outdoors alert for any game I might shoot.

Am I Satanic for that?  If so live with it Martin.

Noel

This one's for you Martin

My First Gun

I was 13 years old when I got my first gun.

There was a small sporting goods shop on Polk Street near California.  I'd stopped by there several times after school to look at the Winchester Single Shot .22 behind the counter.  It cost fifteen dollars.  I wanted that gun.

Earlier that summer, when Lee and I were on one of our trips to Salinas, Uncle Bob let me fire his shotgun.  My friend Rich had his own .22 rifle.  I wanted one too.

It was near Christmas.  I asked Mom to get me that rifle for Christmas, but she refused, saying I wasn't old enough yet, and besides, what would I do with a gun in the city?

Christmas was going to be spent at our house this year.  Uncle Bob and Aunty Mit would be there, and the day after Christmas they were going to take Lee and I to Salinas with them.  Mom and Dad would go down on the bus New Years Eve, and we would return to San Francisco with them the day before school started.
I counted up the money I got for Christmas, twelve dollars.  I had two dollars saved and my allowance was a dollar a week.  If I got my allowance a few days early I would have enough to buy my gun.

The day after Christmas I pleaded with my Dad to let me buy the gun so I could take it to Salinas with me.  Mom objected, but Dad and Uncle Bob thought it would be alright.

Dad took me to the sporting goods store right after it opened.  I bought the gun, and Dad sprung for a cleaning kit and a box of ammunition.  The store clerk wrapped the gun in brown paper, but you could still tell what it was.  Walking next to my Dad, I proudly carried that gun down Polk Street and back home.
An hour later, Lee and I were in the back of Uncle Bob's Pontiac heading down the Bayshore Freeway toward Salinas.  That very day I would be hunting with my own gun.

After lunch I unwrapped the gun and held it.  I turned it over and over in my hands.  I worked the bolt back and forth.  I held it up to my shoulder, pointed it out the window, and looked through the sights.

Then Uncle Bob took Lee and I outside and gave us our second lesson in gun safety.  We gotten our first when he let us fire his shotgun the previous summer.  He told me never to have it loaded unless I was actually going to shoot.  I was never to point it at anyone, even when it was unloaded.  He showed me where the safety was, and how to use it.  And under no circumstances was I to take the gun outside alone.

Then he put some cans on the fence posts behind the house and we got to business.  He showed us how to put the bullet in the chamber, close the bolt, pull back the firing pin knob, and turn the safety lever.
Then he brought the rifle up to his shoulder, turned the safety back down with his thumb, and fired.  The first can flew off the fence post.

By the end of the afternoon Lee and I had fired a half box of ammunition at a dozen cans, hitting about half of them.

After we finished shooting, Uncle Bob got out the cleaning kit and showed us how to take the gun apart and clean it.  He cleaned it the first time, and then I repeated the process.

I took the bolt out of the receiver and wiped it down with an oily rag.  I put a patch through the slot at the end of the cleaning rod, dipped it into a small bottle of Hoppes Number 9, and swabbed the barrel several times.  The smell of the solvent was like perfume.  I ran another patch with a dab of oil on it through the barrel and replaced the bolt.  Uncle Bob told me to always leave the bolt open when storing the rifle.

Twice that week Uncle Bob took us out with the gun.  The first time we shot cans off the fence post again.  The next time he carried his shot gun and I carried my .22 as we walked the tree line looking for quail.

 We didn't see any, but I was hunting with my own gun.  When we got back, Lee and I, under Uncle Bob's supervision,  shot the remaining rounds of ammunition in the box at tin cans.

About 2:00 o'clock in the afternoon on New Years Eve, I got in the Pontiac with Uncle Bob and we drove up the road to Highway 101 at Prunedale.  We waited there until the Greyhound bus from San Francisco came down the highway, stopped, and let Mom and Dad off.

I got in the back seat of the Pontiac with Mom, and Dad got in the front with Uncle Bob.

I immediately started talking about our adventures with my new gun, how good a shot I was, how I learned to keep my gun clean, and how I went hunting with Uncle Bob.  I could see it wasn't something Mom wanted to talk about, but Dad was listening.

When we got to the house, I got out of the car and told Dad I wish I had some bullets left so I could show him how well I could shoot.  But Lee and I had fired the last rounds at some tin cans.

Dad reached into his pocket and pulled out another box of ammunition.  He said we'd go out and shoot as soon as he rested up and changed his clothes.

I was so proud.  I had my own gun, and I knew how to use it and take care of it.  It would be another year and a half before I was allowed to take my rifle out alone.  By then I would have walked many miles along the tree line with Uncle Bob.  I would have demonstrated responsibility in caring for and handling a firearm.

 And I would have earned the trust of both my mentors, Dad and Uncle Bob.

Later, when hunting alone, I shot many birds.  Some rabbits which Aunty Mit cooked.  And a possum once that tasted terrible and was thrown away.

No Martin, it never bothered me killing game.  Later, in adulthood, I only shot what I could eat but I enjoyed the sport and really felt no more guilty bringing down a deer than I felt paying for a streak at a restaurant.  But bringing down the deer was more fun.

Noel

I've never killed any living thing in my life. But if I ever find that WNA who married my high school sweetheart things might change.....

58 minutes ago, birdguy said:

I only shot what I could eat

Sorry to intervene but would you say you were never forced to hunt animals because they were your only source of protein, and that you always had a choice between hunting the animals yourself and buying food in a restaurant or a store?

A Wimpy North American married your high school sweetheart?

Noel

4 minutes ago, dmwalker said:

Sorry to intervene but would you say you were never forced to hunt animals because they were your only source of protein, and that you always had a choice between hunting the animals yourself and buying food in a restaurant or a store?

Yes Dugald, I always had a choice between hunting animals and catching fish or buying them at a store or restaurant.  I enjoyed hunting as a sport.  Fishing too. As a human being I am at the top of the food chain and act accordingly.   According to some people when you count up all the animals and birds I have shot and all the fish I have caught even when I could have bought them, then I'm a mass murderer.  And to make matters worse it cost more to hunt and fish than to buy meat and fish at the supermarket.

Noel

Edited March 1, 20224 yr by birdguy

2 minutes ago, birdguy said:

I'm a mass murderer.

But you are one of the nicest ones I know.

All this reminds me of the Rev. Lewis Carrol's poem 'The Hunting of the Snark'.

"Just the place for a Snark!" the Bellman cried,

   As he landed his crew with care;

Supporting each man on the top of the tide

   By a finger entwined in his hair.

 

He had bought a large map representing the sea,

   Without the least vestige of land:

And the crew were much pleased when they found it to be

   A map they could all understand.

 

"What's the good of Mercator's North Poles and Equators,

   Tropics, Zones, and Meridian Lines?"

So the Bellman would cry: and the crew would reply

   "They are merely conventional signs!

 

He was thoughtful and grave—but the orders he gave

   Were enough to bewilder a crew.

When he cried "Steer to starboard, but keep her head larboard!"

   What on earth was the helmsman to do?

 

But the danger was past—they had landed at last,

   With their boxes, portmanteaus, and bags:

Yet at first sight the crew were not pleased with the view,

   Which consisted of chasms and crags.

 

He served out some grog with a liberal hand,

   And bade them sit down on the beach:

And they could not but own that their Captain looked grand,

   As he stood and delivered his speech.

 

"Friends, Romans, and countrymen, lend me your ears!"

   (They were all of them fond of quotations:

So they drank to his health, and they gave him three cheers,

   While he served out additional rations).

 

"We have sailed many months, we have sailed many weeks,

   (Four weeks to the month you may mark),

But never as yet ('tis your Captain who speaks)

   Have we caught the least glimpse of a Snark!"

 

How do you cook a snark Fielder?  Do they taste good?

Noel

 

14 hours ago, birdguy said:

A Wimpy North American married your high school sweetheart?

Noel

I don't know where he came from, but if I ever meet him again I know where he's going.

16 hours ago, birdguy said:

I ENJOY the SPORT.  How bad of a person does that make me?

 

If the SPORT that you enjoy involves you gaining pleasure from the act of destroying  a life, a very bad one, in fact psychologists would have a lot to say about that. If the SPORT is JUST for SPORT and not for food, even worse. 

 

16 hours ago, birdguy said:

Am I Satanic for that?  If so live with it Martin.

 

No, but yes if you gained pleasure from the death of an animal.

 

16 hours ago, birdguy said:

No Martin, it never bothered me killing game.

 

A child's brain is very mailable. Easily programmed. You were never taught that killing a living creature is a horrible thing, but we do it out of necessity, to eat. Instead you were taught that its absolutely fine to take away an animals life and that it was good fun, sport, and yes, by the way we eat it. 

Doesn't make you a bad person, just that even now at your age, after all these years, you still have mindset that "humans are at the top of the food chain" and "killing animals is good fun and okay for sport".

I think human beings are going to have to change our attitude if we are to mitigate the damage already caused to the environment and stop wiping out species on this planet. You see, the "killing animals is okay for sport" mentality and "its just an animal" and not attaching any negative emotion to the process, is what has devastated so many species and caused them to become extinct.

So no, its not just "a thing" you have killed "for sport" its a living breathing, conscious, sentient entity, with emotions, it can feel and suffer just like you and me. That animal also has a right to exist and not be needlessly slaughtered just for "sport". I mean who on Earth do we humans think we are, that we can eliminate a sentient lifeforms existence, because we humans are awesome, "top of the food chain"  and its fun.