This morning, an Air France 777 landing on the 26L at LFPG did not respond to the pilots' commands.

They finally managed to go around at only 1,200 ft then hold 4,000ft and returned to Paris CDG for a safe landing on runway 27R.

In the link, the description of the problem with the audio between the pilots and the tower.

 

https://www.airlive.net/breaking-pilots-of-air-france-af11-reported-their-boeing-777-didnt-react-to-commands-on-final-approach-to-paris-cdg/amp/

Wow! - l'avion a fait à peu près n'importe quoi is translated here in English by the plane didn`t respond. That`s not exactly accurate. l'avion a fait à peu près n'importe quoi literally means:  the plane did whatever... (i.e. the plane had a mind of it`s own)  It`s going to be interesting to find out what happened.    

 

 

 

 

I'm quite Interested in this one as it's Air France, with their somewhat blemished safety record.  

6 hours ago, fluffyflops said:

I'm quite Interested in this one as it's Air France, with their somewhat blemished safety record.  

Too bad about Air France. I fondly look back to 2017, the last time I actually really enjoyed flying. It was on a 777-300ER, maybe even the same one from this incident.

Beforehand, reading reviews, I was expecting a nightmare, also transiting through CDG. But for whatever reason, maybe low expectations, it was probably my best overall flight experience ever (subjective). Any flights afterwards were ok, but more routine. The AF crew could make you feel like the Sun King, even sitting on the dingiest worn out seat in the back of economy.

BEA FRANCE today released an "Investigation -update" on this incident:

https://bea.aero/fileadmin/user_upload/BEA_-_Press_Release_270422.pdf

1 hour ago, RobPol471 said:

BEA FRANCE today released an "Investigation -update" on this incident:

https://bea.aero/fileadmin/user_upload/BEA_-_Press_Release_270422.pdf

What I didn't see in the report was what caused the initial deviation but a lot of mistakes by the pilots after they felt the plane was deviating on it's own.  

It appears they were in control the whole time but unaware of their own and the other pilot's inputs...  I mean they don't say it but the two of them together almost crashed a perfectly flying airplane if I read this correctly.  

Quote

Up until the go-around, the flight path had remained within the operator’s stabilization criteria. The recorded parameters show that the two pilots then simultaneously made inputs on the controls.

The control columns were then desynchronized8 for 14 seconds due to opposing forces. The captain held the control column in a slightly nose-down position while the co-pilot made several, more pronounced, nose-up inputs. Two brief episodes of wheel desynchronization were also observed.

The configuration warning was displayed9 and the associated aural warning (siren) sounded. The two pilots continued to simultaneously make inputs on the controls. The captain made more pronounced nose down inputs for a few seconds.

The sustained input on the controls led to the PTT button and the AP disconnect switch being involuntarily pressed, the latter action causing several activations of the associated warning. No failure warning was activated during the occurrence10. No anomaly was observed on the aeroplane.

At this stage, the analysis of the parameters does not show inconsistencies, in particular between the movements of the controls and the movements of the aeroplane. The validation and the analysis of the parameters are continuing. Particular attention will be given to reproducing the forces applied to the controls and to the relationship between these forces and the movements of the controls.

 

 

Looks like CRM is not so well at Air France. I mean, AF447 ended up in the Atlantic because of bad CRM...

If we leave the world of aviation, and move to the world of Tesla driven automobiles then we move to a world that has no CRM because it has no crew. I wonder if the accident rates of self driven cars will be lower or higher than cars driven by a human who is managing the situation? I wonder if self flying airliners will soon be safer than ones with human pilots?

It's funny because with the AF447 incident in mind, a similar scenario - according to aviation armchair experts - should be unlikely in a Boeing airplane due to the feedback of the yoke for each crew member.

And yet here we are.

This is 100% poor CRM. Wow.

 

On 4/27/2022 at 6:46 PM, Fielder said:

I wonder if the accident rates of self driven cars will be lower or higher than cars driven by a human who is managing the situation?

A human who, in all likelihood, created the situation in the first place.

On 4/27/2022 at 8:11 PM, psolk said:

What I didn't see in the report was what caused the initial deviation but a lot of mistakes by the pilots after they felt the plane was deviating on it's own.  

It appears they were in control the whole time but unaware of their own and the other pilot's inputs...  I mean they don't say it but the two of them together almost crashed a perfectly flying airplane if I read this correctly.  

 

 

what did i say 🙂 

 

On 5/2/2022 at 8:52 AM, SAS443 said:

It's funny because with the AF447 incident in mind, a similar scenario - according to aviation armchair experts - should be unlikely in a Boeing airplane due to the feedback of the yoke for each crew member.

And yet here we are.

This is 100% poor CRM. Wow.

 

ive lost count the number of times I sat in recurrents over the years watching vidoes from crm instructors about Air France.. 

The thing that baffles me, is the shear arrogance of the french with it.   They never learn.  Fools. 

Nearly as bad as reporting for a JFK and not checking if the F/O is qualified and in check.   🙂 🙂 

Edited May 5, 20224 yr by fluffyflops