6 hours ago, skipph said:

I would consider buying the 650 except for certain persons associated with the product.

What an unusual thing to announce.

No one is going to twist your arm.  

As for your feelings regarding this "person" or "persons" (There's only 2 of us, so I'm assuming you mean just one of them), you obviously don't know "him" very well.  But as they say, life goes on.

 

 

5 hours ago, flyforever said:

The biggest strategic mistake for xplane was to not provide existing Xp11 owners with a fair price upgrade

Steam had a 30% discount for the first few weeks of release.  

Regardless of this, I don't know of any software that just offers an upgrade.  Microsoft were charging full price for every Windows version.  Adobe were charging full price for every new version of Photoshop.  Even every version of MSFS was full price, regardless if you owned an older version.

5 hours ago, flyforever said:

especially given that many had purchased msfs2020.

I'm not sure what MSFS 2020 has to do with XP12 being cheaper for those who own it.

 

8 hours ago, flyforever said:

The biggest strategic mistake for xplane was to not provide existing Xp11 owners with a fair price upgrade, especially given that many had purchased msfs2020.

It's exactly what happened in my case. I own xp11, but do not feel I want to shell out for the full cost of xp12 as well as risking the obsolescence of paid add ons.

I have similar thoughts regarding XP12. While better than XP11, I just don’t see it as a great leap forward compared to the status quo, and I think that it should have been an additional free update to XP11 (especially given the stagnant development for XP11).

To pay more money for the upgrade (some 3 years later for 2019 standard features) does not seem enticing until LR can show that they will continue development frequently / consistently, much more so than they did with XP11.

29 minutes ago, OverTheEDJ said:

I have similar thoughts regarding XP12. While better than XP11, I just don’t see it as a great leap forward compared to the status quo, and I think that it should have been an additional free update to XP11 (especially given the stagnant development for XP11).

 

To pay more money for the upgrade (some 3 years later for 2019 standard features) does not seem enticing until LR can show that they will continue development frequently / consistently, much more so than they did with XP11.

 

Vote with your wallet. You don’t see value. Others do. Very simple logic. 

I have a hard time with sentiments about new versions of a sim having to be discounted for owners of the previous one tbh. 

Buying the base sim isn't really that much money considering "enjoyment per unit of currency". If me and the missus have a nice evening at a decent restaurant that would provide us a couple of hours of enjoyment for, what $200-300?

I bought XP12 the moment it was released and although it isn't my main sim at the moment I've probably got a hundred hours in it. That is good "enjoyment per unit of currency" in my book. All for $59.99 or something thereabouts. 

Besides, the cost of the sim is the proverbial drop in the bucket considering all the add-ons I've purchased over the years. That is a sum I'd rather not think about.. 😉

 

I could have some kind of understanding for people living in very poor countries because in that case it can be quite a high amount of money. Otherwise the $60 for this new (very promising) version of XP (that will be updated for at least the next 4-5 years), is less than nothing, compared to other spendings. For example I had lunch with my instructor 2 weeks ago: i paid for both of us (pzza, drink and coffee). The bill was exactly $60 (with $5 of tip). 1h in a professional flightsimulators costed me around $180...sometimes i have the impression some folks want others to work for free. The whining about having to pay for a new (massively improved version) is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. The amount of "Fun" i'm having with XP during years and years is by far the cheapest hobby or activity i can get.
 

18 hours ago, flyforever said:

The biggest strategic mistake for xplane was to not provide existing Xp11 owners with a fair price upgrade, especially given that many had purchased msfs2020.

It's exactly what happened in my case. I own xp11, but do not feel I want to shell out for the full cost of xp12 as well as risking the obsolescence of paid add ons.

This applies to p3D. I own version 4.xx, but decided not to pay the full price for version 5.

A long, long time ago, Microsoft released a new Flight Simulator version every two to three years and people merrily paid full price for it each and every time. X-Plane 11's shelf life was six years. That's quite a bit of a gap.

11 hours ago, GoranM said:

Vote with your wallet. You don’t see value. Others do. Very simple logic. 

...but so many people have not voted just yet for XP12, including its XP11 user base. Much like the OP observed and the stats available indicate to me, XP12 is struggling some 5 months out of the gate.

...and considering the recent comments in this thread concerning how negligible the entry fee is for XP12, I am beginning to think that the rare sentiments posted (and early YT vids claiming that XP12 is just an upgrade to a higher version of XP11) concerning XP12 "decision" to charge is impacting sales.

1 hour ago, OverTheEDJ said:

am beginning to think that the rare sentiments posted (and early YT vids claiming that XP12 is just an upgrade to a higher version of XP11)

The main thing that has hurt the entire community is a certain other sim making impossible promises and showing fake preview videos, then when it completely failed to deliver caused 9.8 million people to rage quit the entire genre.

XP12 has taken a sizable chunk of those who stayed around already, and the rest will come back to flightsim when they hear about how good it really is, try it out, then upgrade their PC.

Oh, and the reason those sentiments were rare is because Microsoft didnt pay that many people to post it, and their fake accounts and posts were generally quickly deleted on steam. Sad, but its the world we live in.

1 hour ago, OverTheEDJ said:

I had long ago made the decision not to support your business.

I'll say it so he doesn't have to.

I suspect the main emotion that statement elicits is a feeling of relief.... 

13 hours ago, OverTheEDJ said:

I just don’t see it as a great leap forward compared to the status quo

I don't see a single aspect of XP12 that statement could be applied to.

They literally took every aspect of XP11 that needed a boot into the future, kicked it there and then some, without breaking a single thing that made XP11 already the best flightsim you could buy.

Why that isnt all massive flight sim news I dont know, but it should be.

2 hours ago, mSparks said:

The main thing that has hurt the entire community is a certain other sim making impossible promises and showing fake preview videos, then when it completely failed to deliver caused 9.8 million people to rage quit the entire genre.

....

2 hours ago, mSparks said:

XP12 has taken a sizable chunk of those who stayed around already, and the rest will come back to flightsim when they hear about how good it really is, try it out, then upgrade their PC.

XP12 can’t even take a chunk of LR’s XP11 users, LR has flashed it in front of XP11 users and even cut the price, and still the majority (according to sources made public) stick with XP11.

2 hours ago, mSparks said:

I'll say it so he doesn't have to.

I suspect the main emotion that statement elicits is a feeling of relief....

great, you said it.

2 hours ago, mSparks said:

I don't see a single aspect of XP12 that statement could be applied to.

And I don't see a single cloud reflection at night in XP12...how about that one?

2 hours ago, mSparks said:

Why that isnt all massive flight sim news I dont know, but it should be.

It’s not massive news bcuz its not perceived as a great advancement by millions. Even early vids by XP12 showing the new features did not create much buzz bcuz many had already seen it before in other sims, including combat sims.

5 hours ago, OverTheEDJ said:

the stats available indicate to me, XP12 is struggling some 5 months out of the gate.

The best sales of any version at this stage of release is struggling?

This conversation is pointless.

2 hours ago, OverTheEDJ said:

XP12 can’t even take a chunk of LR’s XP11 users

that 80% of XP11 users on hardware that is insufficient to run XP12 arent quite ready yet to spend a hundred thousand plus rubles on new hardware that can definately should not be news to anyone.

although how many have already has exceeded everyones expectations, and that was the second biggest news of the last navigraph survey (the biggest news being some 9.8 million people abandoned flightsim over the course of 18 months)

2 hours ago, OverTheEDJ said:

And I don't see a single cloud reflection at night in XP12...how about that one?

lol, exactly how many users do you think this would alter their purchasing decision and the way they spend their day,

Are you saying you will be a convert to cult xplane when it does? 

I can think of many better straws to grasp.

2 hours ago, OverTheEDJ said:

Even early vids by XP12 showing the new features did not create much buzz

Completely agree, I wonder pray tell what could have been the cause of so many people not believing in the promises made by developers of flight sims.

Pretty big news Laminar and pretty much all their 3rd parties have delivered on them all when all the others didnt.

That news is slowly leaking out, but once bitten twice shy and all that.

 

Edited February 26, 20233 yr by mSparks

48 minutes ago, mSparks said:

and that was the second biggest news of the last navigraph survey (the biggest news being some 9.8 million people abandoned flightsim over the course of 18 months)

Am I missing something here? Please back this up with facts. I'm quite sure they did not survey 9.8 million people.

Since 2020, the flight simming community has seen a rejuvenation. Before that, you couldn't even find a good peripheral on the market. Interest in flight simulation has probably never been higher.

46 minutes ago, brinx said:

Am I missing something here? Please back this up with facts. I'm quite sure they did not survey 9.8 million people.

they didnt, from the proportions of users of different sims and foreknowledge of how many are active on the likes of P3D, XP11, XP12, it is possible to get a reasonable estimate that there are in the order of 200 to 300 thousand people currently now active in the flight sim community.

that means of

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2022/12/07/microsoft-flight-simulator-celebrates-10-million-pilots/

(if you take their numbers seriously)

about 9.8million left/didnt stick around.

That is also consistent with their steam stats, losing 90% of users in the first month (happens to everyone they said... yet then very conveniently ignore when talking steam stats that XP12 has been racking up 30 and 40% monthly gains since launch).

Also consistent with how many people are actually around talking flightsim on places like the org, avsim and various other flight sim comment sections, vs say that of the quest headset or beat saber.

Also consistent with threads like

That is catastrophic, and not just for those vested in MS, which tbh I don't care about, its also catastrophic for everyone else because that is 9.8 million people (none of which will have ever heard of xplane) who were flipped away from flight sim and would likely have stuck around and been quickly exposed to XP12 if they were actually given what they were promised.

But instead, we should believe its a slow news day because xplane apparently doesnt have cloud reflections at night...

Pah.

Edited February 26, 20233 yr by mSparks