It’s common to land long when following them in real life too. Most of my co workers will come in with 3 red 1 white to better hit the 1,000’ zone. 

on my set up Papi lights are visible between 5 and 6 NM, daytime, as they should be.

No idea what night time vis is.

 

I seem to recall that the PAPI is calibrated to bring the largest aircraft commonly used at the airport onto the tarmac at the aiming point correctly. So if you're landing at KSFO in a C172 your eye is going to be at least three stories above the touchdown zone exactly like that of a 747's captain when that aircraft's landing gear first contacts the ground. The 172's wheels will still be at least 25 feet in the air at that point.

If you're landing at a small GA airport, the PAPI should be positioned differently with a lower pilot view in mind. Whether this is replicated in MSFS, I have no idea, but it might explain at least some of the discrepancy observed in the sim. For me, at least, the PAPI plays a much more important role in the sim than IRL, because I don't have three dimensional cues in establishing the visual glide path in the sim. In any case, I was always taught to establish a relatively steep path on final approach in a single engine plane, just to provide additional leeway in the event of a power loss close to the ground. Maybe that is considered poor practice these days, but I would be fine with an approach that started with four white lights 3 miles out and three or four red lights close to the end of the runway, so long as the descent rate was relatively constant. How I ever passed that check ride is beyond me....

Hi all, I'm afraid I'm the only one who can hardly see the papis may be 1-2nm from the runway or even worse who don't able to see them. The poor visibility makes the landing so uncomfortable especially during non-precision approaches.

Any recommendation that will improve the PAPI visibility will be more than welcome.

Thanks in advance

Cheers,

Hakan 

When I learned to fly in the mid 1960's there were no approach lights at the airport. I was taught to look at the edge of the runway and fly the airplane so it just keeps getting larger but doesn't move. We used the same approach in the USAF. We were supposed to touch down in the first 300 feet or so. If you touched down past the captain's bars you would get gigged by the landing officer. 

👍 And the beauty with this method is, it works for every approach slope angle.

Nevertheless, the fact that most PAPIs in MSFS are grossly mislocated is one bigger serious bugs IMO, since it teaches sim pilots to disregard them or even worse to accept that 4 red are ok. 

 

 

PAPI’s are really not needed and in fact, a lot of runways especially at GA airports don’t have them or have ones that are not functioning.  They really only are an aid and should be used as such.  They are not the “holy grail” of precision approaches.  Sure a perfect 2 red, 2 white on your standard PAPI is nice but particularly if flying most GA airplanes it’s not really even that important.  I’ve got over 550 hours flying mostly 172’s and now Light Sport aircraft and I’d guess the majority of my landings are on runways without PAPI’s.

If you develop a good sight picture for the runway and the airplane you are flying you’ll see that your reliance on PAPI’s diminishes a great deal.

PAPIs that are bugged to an extent aren't the only issue in MSFS. ILS glideslopes are often misplaced as well and you'll come in too high and land a little long if you follow it precisely. I think some devs have corrected these for their airport addons but not many as far as I can tell.

You should be at 50 feet crossing the threshold, but in MSFS you often end up at 100 feet if you follow the PAPIs or the glideslope precisely. If you disregard the glideslope to be at 50 feet at the threshold you'll sometimes get an EGPWS warning in an airliner which would be a mandatory go around IRL.

Of course coming in on 3 reds 1 white is done in IRL too depending on what aircraft you're flying and at which airport you're landing, but in MSFS it's not because of the PAPIs being adjusted for the aircraft with the highest view point. I guess you can just pretend it's adjusted for a 747 if you land a 737 at JFK in the sim, but landing a 747 you're still going to be coming in too high.

17 minutes ago, threegreen said:

PAPIs that are bugged to an extent aren't the only issue in MSFS. ILS glideslopes are often misplaced as well and you'll come in too high and land a little long if you follow it precisely. I think some devs have corrected these for their airport addons but not many as far as I can tell......

Is this why I sometimes get a glideslope warning on approach, even when I am bang on the centreline?

I normally fly in on 3 reds and one white in msfs but it is easy to find yourself down to 4 reds with a bit of turbulence and I was warned that I would be getting a phone call from the tower if I made a habit of this in real life.

Edited January 5, 20242 yr by cianpars

I couldn't care less what real world ATC thinks when I am flying in the simulator. I always try to come in slightly low so that I can make full use of the available runway.

Edited January 5, 20242 yr by Christopher Low

36 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

I couldn't care less what real world ATC thinks when I am flying in the simulator. I always try to come in slightly low so that I can make full use of the available runway.

You can always slam it, Navy/Ryanair style😂

6 hours ago, jspilot said:

PAPI’s are really not needed

Define "needed". PAPIs are an excellent tool and should be used if the airport has them.

5 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

Is this why I sometimes get a glideslope warning on approach, even when I am bang on the centreline?

The centerline doesn't have anything to do with it. You'll inevitably get a glideslope warning though when you're flying slightly below the G/S and drop a little lower, even though you're still fine.

When I say "centreline", I mean perfectly aligned with the glideslope. Surely that has everything to do with it?