Tried the turbine for the first time. Managed to damage the engines, even though I knew very well not to over torque… No chip warning though (not sure if that exists in the Duke). 

Was not able to reach the ceiling of 28,000ft as I was Ng-limited. Could have been user error though. Or damaged engines 😆 I settled at 24,000 and had a scenic flight around Everest. 

Those engines though… 4000fpm. And the sounds!

EDIT: Did I see a screenshot of an instrument panel with wood in this thread? That looked so great. I might very well have dreamt it though…

Edited May 15, 20242 yr by Cpt_Piett

4 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

I'll try the GD tonight if you get a chance can you quickly try the B60 factory? I've only used that one so far.

I have tried the Factory B-60 Duke. Both hidden clickspots (Dual engine cowl flaps and autopilot pitch ) do work in both directions by hovering over the click spots and rolling my mouse wheel, however only the up icon displays, so while it may appear to only work in one direction, it actually is working both ways.

11 minutes ago, GACSavannah said:

I have tried the Factory B-60 Duke. Both hidden clickspots (Dual engine cowl flaps and autopilot pitch ) do work in both directions by hovering over the click spots and rolling my mouse wheel, however only the up icon displays, so while it may appear to only work in one direction, it actually is working both ways.

Yes I realised this tonight. No visual indicators but the clicks work.

major fail at 25000 again..and again..and again!

more tomorrow was not fun getting to my destination. Used the Grand tonight. 

47 minutes ago, Cpt_Piett said:

No chip warning though (not sure if that exists in the Duke).

Yes, it has a chip warning... Ask me how I know... 😊

I'm greatly enjoying the Turbine. I've been up to 28,000 without engine damage, so that could've been your altitude limitation.

2 hours ago, s0cks said:

Haha. Yes, well, it's easy to spend money on MSFS that's for sure.

Difficult choice. I will probably end up doing what I always do... procrastinating and then end up just flying one of the excellent single piston planes I have lol.

Don't do that!!! Get any one of the three mentioned above....you won't regret it!!! If it were up to me, definitely the Duke, then the 414, then the 310, in that order. But the 414 is a little easier to get going than the Duke. The Duke has to be handle more precisely, where the 414 is a little more forgiving, in my opinion. Of the 414 and 310, I personally fly the 310 a lot more than the 414. I feel more immersed in the cockpit of the 310 than I do the 414, plus I've actually flown the 310 a few times. You can't go wrong with any of them. The only way to go wrong is to stick with a single engine piston and miss out on the twins.😁

5 hours ago, monica6211 said:

I feel more immersed in the cockpit of the 310 than I do the 414

The feel of being there in the 310 is great indeed, perhapst the best of all aircraft. It is one of the few aircraft I purchased when it came out and still fly regularly. It is not the fastest out there but I am not flying to get somewhere fast, since when I shut down MSFS I am still at the exact same spot as when I started it.

If I where would have to purchase all three now, my order would be the 310, the Duke and then the 414.

 

On 5/9/2024 at 9:31 AM, GACSavannah said:

Sorry if this has already been posted anywhere else. I looked but did not find anything already posted...

 

Looks like Black Square will not be making us wait for the further delayed SU15!!!

https://www.justflight.com/articles/black-square-msfs-dukes-important-notes-about-the-aircraft

"Those of you who have been closely following the development of the Black Square Simulation Dukes will be aware that we were hoping to wait for SU15 before releasing the aircraft. After another delay of indefinite length, however, and the recommendation of many loyal fans, we have decided to release the aircraft without any further delay..."

 

Still waiting on your response that you initiated on the FS9 Savannah Hilton-Head International thread. Was that all BS? 😉

Mitch 

OK quick summary of my single flight last night. I usually excitedly make 3 short hour trips before convincing myself I have to sleep. Was glad to quit this time though. 

Note :last few days been using B60 factory. Like the plane a lot. The hidden click spots need work on the labels quickly imo before the support requests start piling up. I only see UP arrows no DOWN arrows in places where the logic exists but no labels. Or the labels show the stop sign (don't click!) but clicking works counter intuitively. Also my engines quit at my first climb to a planned 29k cruise at 25k leaving me in a death spin shortly after and over stressed frame END FLIGHT screen. 

OK grand duke last night. Prepared re the click spot labeling I opened both cowl flaps quickly and followed the start checklist. To the letter. No pop pop vroom at all. Airport AYPY btw mild temps. After trying cold hot and restart lists I lost patience (rare for me and not a good sign) so stabbed Ctrl E. Plane started quickly but had to prep cockpit elsewhere myself. Hold on. Sorry forgot to say they DID start with CE but I didn't know it as no engine sounds. (EDIT : Engine sounds came back later after reload flight after stress killed flight.) The only way I knew they started was looking at the guages, props and hearing the turbo whine. Anxious to get going I followed Fs Huds commands and got airborne.

"Climb to 17k expect fl290." Okey doke! Umm my altimeter is not working? Or 2nd gps or engine monitor thingy. This turned out to be a GOOD thing. Frantically scanned all knobs and buttons. I'd forgotten nothing. Hmm. Why is that circuit breaker different from others? Presses it in. Altimeter and GPS come back to life! Shorted out first gps and lost flight plan but no big deal only couple way points and departure there. (Breaker must have tripped during take off) 

I pass 17k get my clearance for 29k and up I go. All instruments good. Cylinder head in top end of range but oil temp good. I keep eye on it and leave cowl flaps open for now. 

Passing 25k uh oh. Engines gone quiet again. Is it the sound? Oh heck they both instantly quit on me. 10 seconds later I'm in a familiar death spiral and it's flight over. 

Deep breath. 

Start again on runway (I saved flight there). 

All goes well except... Guess what? Engines die at 25k. This time I'm ready though. I took screenshots before and after they died. Yes it's THAT predictable sadly. Turned ap off and spammed starters with left hand while keeping plane on steady glide down. They both restarted and I got control back. 

This time I request 24k cruise . Feeling nervous. All goes well and I'm there and leveled off. After 10 mins of this decide request 29k again and this time creep up there SLOWLY. No issues yay! 

OK I get my descent clearance and down i go. Prop and throttle set low. Love the peaceful engine hum. All temps good. Close cowl flaps finally to avoid over cooling (remember that from RealAir days!) 

Except. It's TOO quiet?! Oh I just passed thru 25k and... My engines died AGAIN. Exactly thru 25k. Hmmm. Did the restart and eventually landed at my tiny island strip safely. 

Bed time yay! 

At all times the radar engine info was 100 % or close and received absolutely no warning before engine cut out. 

This 25k thing. My only thought so far is this CRITICAL ALTITUDE mentioned in manual. Turbocharged engines no mixture change until CA needed. Doesn't mention what CA actually IS though. Research estimates 24k in normal conditions (pressure density?) 

Is the plane software detecting your altitude and switching to some kind of 'mixture now required' mode? Wild guess here. If it IS then it's doing it abruptly and with my mixture set full as per manual is THAT causing instant engine bye bye? 

IRL I'd never get in a plane with this much engine unreliablity. Click spots are a minor inconvenience but not being able to climb to normal service ceiling with light load and 1/3 fuel IS a problem for me. 

Tempted to skip to the turbine next time just to get away from that piston model. 

In the RealAir Dukes engine failure followed abuse like night and day. But it took some REAL abuse and ignorance of engine management procedures to get there. Also you had warning lights flashing first and they engines didn't quit at EXACTLY the same time! One would die first causing frantic adjusting and then 2nd engine was usually fine to get me to diverted strip. 

IRL 2 engines NEVER quit exact same time even with fuel starvation they are a few seconds apart at least. 

Edited May 15, 20242 yr by sloppysmusic
Re engine sounds

22 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

OK grand duke last night. Prepared re the click spot labeling I opened both cowl flaps quickly and followed the start checklist. To the letter. No pop pop vroom at all. Airport AYPY btw mild temps.

I initially had problems starting the engines as well and found that they need quite a bit of priming. Throttle full, mixture full rich, then run the fuel pump for a good 6 - 8 seconds. If it doesn't start up, prime some more. (I was initially wary of over-priming the engine, but it seems it's more likely you'll under-prime them.)

24 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

This 25k thing. My only thought so far is this CRITICAL ALTITUDE mentioned in manual. Turbocharged engines no mixture change until CA needed. Doesn't mention what CA actually IS though.

The manual does describe this:

Quote

Simply put, the critical altitude of a turbocharged engine is the maximum altitude at which the turbocharger can compress the atmospheric pressure air to a specified maximum pressure. When the aircraft continues to climb beyond this altitude, manifold pressure will begin to drop, and the mixture must be leaned, just as with a normally aspirated engine.

IOW, the turbocharger will be able to maintain 40 inHg up to the critical altitude, and manifold pressure will begin to drop above that.

I'd be surprised though if the coding was as simple as "above the critical altitude, do something different", and so I'm not sure that this is actually the cause of the issues you're seeing. My suspicion is that this is a conflict with a different addon; have you tried this with a community folder that is empty except for the Duke?

I haven't taken the Piston Duke above FL 250 myself yet, but I plan to do a test of this.

Has anyone noticed the issue that the external power won't stick? Everytime I switch it on it gets disabled after a few seconds.
It could be the wind sim since similar things happen with other aicraft when they are tied down; a little gust of wind and the tiedowns get removed.

Edited May 15, 20242 yr by orchestra_nl
grammar

39 minutes ago, martinboehme said:

My suspicion is that this is a conflict with a different addon; have you tried this with

Thanks for the reply! No I haven't done further testing yet. As I'm not being paid to test and fault find addon planes I tend to only fly those that DO work with my popular addons. 

My addons :

ASFS 

TDX750 

AUTOFPS 

FS HUD

FSTL 

The addon planes currently installed that have no issues with other addons and don't have insta-quit engines during a normal climb :

PMDG 736/739

FSW LEAR 35

JF F28 

A2A COMMANCHE 

BS BARON BONANZA + KING AIR 

Sorry don't mean to be flippant about the testing /cf solution but finding a conflict won't solve the issue and when other addons work fine I'm ain't broke ain't fixing them! 

I don't have many hours in the day to sim at present and it's usually late night chill flight before bed. Chill as in no sudden flight ending surprises I'm fine with brain taxing complex aircraft! 

If anyone wants to test this. Set cruise 29k and settle into climb early from say 5000 with mixture, power and prop set FULL. So not change any lever setting unless actually overheats make sure cowl flaps fully open. 

Yes I know this isn't a recommend approach but I'd like to see what others experience. The mixture at full should start to degrade performance slowly but surely after 24k. Mine dies and EXACTLY at 25k 2992 with those parameters set. No prior warnings at all from instruments, warning panels or BS tablet tabs. 

Edited May 15, 20242 yr by sloppysmusic
Test scenario suggestion

9 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

Sorry don't mean to be flippant about the testing /cf solution but finding a conflict won't solve the issue and when other addons work fine I'm ain't broke ain't fixing them! 

Yes, finding a conflict doesn't solve the issue per se, but it does give a better idea of "is this an issue with the addon per se, or is it a conflict with something else" (possibly an addon that not a lot of other people are running, so it may never have shown up in testing). Understand that you may not want to devote the time it takes to do this -- just wanted to suggest a possible next step.

That said, I did a test with the Grand Duke and also experienced something similar to what you saw.

I set it up to climb all the way up to FL 290. Throttle wide open, propellers max rpm, mixture full rich.

Going through about FL 250, I started to see manifold pressure drop, as expected above the critical altitude.

I kept the mixture full rich, as I figured an overly rich mixture shouldn't usually be too much of an issue -- the excess unburnt fuel should just be going out the exhaust.

Just as I was levelling off at FL 290, both engines quit. Manifold pressure was about 35 inHg at this point. I entered a glide with the engines windmilling and was able to restart them at around FL 220.

Edit: Did you also see manifold pressure dropping before your engines quit?

My best explanation for what is going on here is that the addon is modelling the engines quitting because of the overly rich mixture. The next time I try this, I'll have to try and lean above the critical altitude to see if the engines keep running. It does seem a bit extreme to me that the engines would quit because of the overly rich mixture -- manifold pressure hadn't dropped off by _that_ much yet. Does anyone have any input on what to expect here in the real airplane (or similar airplanes with turbocharged engines)?

Edited May 15, 20242 yr by martinboehme

6 minutes ago, martinboehme said:

Just as I was levelling off at FL 290,

That scenario happened twice with me JUST as I was leveling off. Wild guess is that as plane stops climbing there is less work for engines so they start to run more freely. This would maybe be equivalent for example to in a car accelerating in top gear at too slow a speed. Once the engines start spinning up the sim code readjusts, notices the mixture way off optimal and computes : stall condition.

Didn't explain that well but I'm sure you get what I'm suggesting! 

29 minutes ago, martinboehme said:

Edit: Did you also see manifold pressure dropping before your engines quit?

I took screenshots before and after as I knew it was coming which may provide insight. Not at home now so will have to post later. No sound change from engines if there was mp drop. 

37 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

That scenario happened twice with me JUST as I was leveling off. Wild guess is that as plane stops climbing there is less work for engines so they start to run more freely.

Hm, interesting observation. The "levelling off" bit looks as if it may well be relevant.

The thing is though, with a constant speed prop, there shouldn't really be less work for the engines to do. Airspeed will increase, which does make it easier for the props to turn (and with a fixed-pitch prop, you'd see RPM increase), but the propeller governor will immediately coarsen the pitch to keep the props at the RPM they're set to. (In the car analogy, you've got an automatic transmission that is shifting up as the car accelerates.)

So this by itself _shouldn't_ be causing any changes in the mixture. But it does look like _something_ happens at level-off.

It'd be a different case if you'd throttled back at level-off. The manual specifically states:

Quote

If a reduced throttle setting is desired during cruise, manual control of the mixture setting may also be required. As the critical altitude is only guaranteed at wide open throttle, a reduced throttle setting may reduce turbocharger RPM to the point where the desired manifold pressure can no longer be maintained.

(This is true even below critical altitude, but it applies equally -- probably more so -- above critical altitude.)

So throttling back would cause the mixture to become even richer. I assume however that you didn't throttle back -- I certainly didn't, and I think you'd want to keep the throttle wide open at FL 290.

37 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

Once the engines start spinning up the sim code readjusts, notices the mixture way off optimal and computes : stall condition.

Didn't explain that well but I'm sure you get what I'm suggesting! 

Hm -- not sure about this hypothesis. I would assume that the engine model is continuously recomputing all engine parameters many times a second (I think I have a basic idea of how you'd go about modelling something like this). As I've explained above, I don't see why the mixture should change during level-off, so that shouldn't be a reason for the engine to suddenly quit -- and I would be surprised if there was something in the engine model that only suddenly realized during level-off that the mixture has been overly rich for a while.

I took a quick look at the official forums if I was able to find anything about this there. Wasn't able to immediately find anything, but I did see people saying that the engine model seems to be inaccurate at high altitudes:

https://community.justflight.com/topic/6453/unrealistic-engine-behavior-at-high-altitudes/24

Maybe it's related to this?

Anyway, I plan to do some more testing too (I do like the Piston Duke -- thought I'd like the turbine version better, but the sounds on the piston version are just amazing). I may also raise this on the official forums depending on what I find.

Edit: I did also see this in the manual:

Quote

DO NOT fully retard throttle above critical altitude. Engine combustion may cease.

But we're certainly not doing anything close to fully retarding the throttle.

Edited May 15, 20242 yr by martinboehme