>This has been a very interesting read. I wasn't aware FSX has>been such a mess for aircraft designers too.> I'm a scenery designer, at least I used to be before FSX>came along. Im disgusted with FSX both as a simmer & a>developer. This program needs a engine re-write. The 10 year>old code running FSX must end with this version to move>forward.>The SDK is poorly documented; offers limited visual>improvements, does not support custom high end ground,taxiway,>runway creation. The FS2002 SDK is still the only way to hack>around the crappy default apron,runway textures. The new>shaders look awful. Just look at the glass/refmap in the>default KSEA tower. I'm not sticking that mess on my models.>The exporting process is an absolute circus of confusion. GUID>numbers, friendly IDs, flipping dds textures. Its all such a>mess. Development is 90% struggling with the naff exporter>tools, 10% artwork. It really should be the other way round.>I'm not in this for the money, it used to be fun with FS2002 &>FS9, so i'm not willing to struggle with incompetent software>that still runs terribly. I have a 3.8Ghz quad core , 4GB of>ram & a NV8800GTX. FSX performance is heartbreakingly>disappointing. I wouldn't have a problem with the performance>if the visuals were nextgen, but it some cases it can be>inferior to FS9. Theres still many ways to induce strong>blurring, popping autogen & single digit framerates because>theres so much obsolete bloated code.> I've worked in the videogames industry for over ten years.>I've shipped 3x XBOX360 games in the last 3 years. I've used>lots of propriety & commercial toolsets. The FSX SDK is by far>the worst software i've ever laid hands on. >>George Grimshaw / FlyTampaWow. George was looking over my shoulder when he wrote that. Echoes my sentiments 100%I demoed a beta build of FTX to Phil and ACES at Devcon. At the time what I showed was 100% pure SDK. But there was an issue. In order to make RTM we needed basic Terrain SDK functionality to be fixed. I won't list them here, but there's a few ball busters. Phil asked us to submit tech papers outlining the major issues preventing us from RTM. We spent some time writing those. During DevCon Phil repeatedly approached me asking "have you sent that info to me yet?". Well, we sent them to him the week after DevCon (about 6+ weeks ago). I have yet to receive a single acknowledgement or reply.We now have to work around the abysmal SDK to get our product out, and frankly, I'm hugely disappointed that Steve, Jim, Ron, George, Jon and other respected developers in our tiny industry have to resort to this very public discussion in an attempt for ACES to sit up and take notice.I slammed the SDK and the testing regime 20 months ago during the beta. I was called a liar and ACES labelled RTM the "magic rabbit" in reply. Well there's been no magic rabbit and my call back then to delay shipping RTM by 12 months was ignored - and we've all seen the results.Sure we're going to release our product. But it will only be by fighting, kicking and screaming at the SDK every step of the way and breaking some rules to get the product out. The terrain system is so inconsistent in its design, structure, lack of localisation options and just generally reeks of many coders, artists and designers "inheriting" chunks of the project and putting their own stamp on it during their all-too-brief custody.It's a shame about VCRain, but I can assure you that's a drop in the ocean compared to other core functionality "advertised" in the SDK, but which is broken and prevents developers on focusing what is important - creating content and art assets, not fighting the SDK.

John,I do apologize for not getting back to you, but I have an excuse. I did ship a product.And I do have some data points in response to your queries, so there was a follow thru and you will get more than a perfunctory response.I also apologize for you being called a liar in the past, I dont like it when it happens and that sort of behavior is never called for.Can this wait till tomorrow, so I get to continue to enjoy my downtime this weekend?Phil

Wow....Kinda looks like the heavyweights of the market are firing broadsides at the ivory tower. I was going to wade back into this debate (sheesh, 4 pages ago now), but I think I'll just keep my mouth shut for the present, and see what George, John, and Phil have to say to one another and the forum. I'm willing to wait until tomorrow.(But I still want "W" fixed. ;) )

Boy...I hope that "read and re-export" tool includes Gmax! :9I know you're not really talking about Gmax but I thought I'd distract you with that request.Wana-be-freeware-developer

>John,>>I do apologize for not getting back to you, but I have an>excuse. I did ship a product.>>And I do have some data points in response to your queries, so>there was a follow thru and you will get more than a>perfunctory response.>>I also apologize for you being called a liar in the past, I>dont like it when it happens and that sort of behavior is>never called for.>>Can this wait till tomorrow, so I get to continue to enjoy my>downtime this weekend?>>PhilHi Phil :)Ah, it's 7.45pm Sunday night in Seattle. Monday afternoon here mate. Log off and get some down time man!A quick note though, and no disrespect intended; as flattering as it is for Tom, the public forums here at AVSIM should not be a substitute for your Outlook Inbox; a simple acknowledgement that Doug, John, Rafael and the other guys on your team were looking into the tech issues would have sufficed. As euphoric as the atmosphere at DevCon was, I was not delusional enough to expect an SP2a - Shawn runs a business unit that has real business objectives and I am sure the codeline for FS11 is the focus moving forward. That said, I'd like to see some real moves to accomodate those of us in the developer space who are fighting the SDK and have to break rules to RTM our products.On a brighter note - the ESP programme Dave and Scott are running with is a very real, very exciting solution for our commercial plans and a very solid step in the right direction for you guys. We hope to work with you on some good outcomes there.

>If in fact FSX is using a engine that has powered many>previous versions...after all the angst of this version, would>it just not make sense to start over with a brand new engine>and screw back compat? This way a fresh start would allow>FS11, 12, 13 to be something totally new? What am I missing?Yes, that is what I am wondering. Maybe it is early enough for Aces and the 3rd parties to work in concert towards a targeted goal for FS11.Now that we are all hopefully past the venting phase, it can all start to make better sense. And I can see some good logic coming to light here.

"....like we are all sitting around a campfire singing Kumbia with the team..." :-lol you're cracking me up Jim... :-lol The ironic thing is that is exactly what I thought was the case until this thread appeared. I spent the equivalent of a new computer upgrade to go to FANCON with the intent of getting some good technical information on hardware and how to get FSX to run correctly. The distinct message I got there was that if you want any useful information you had to be invited to the DEVCON private party, FANCON was for sales and marketing to the consumers. Even the ACES presentation at FANCON was about how they were going to market their products going forward. Not real useful to someone already familiar with FS, as most of the attendees appeared to be. Oh and by the way, if you went to DEVCON you apparently had to put on the "NDA" shackles and couldn't talk about anything you heard with the common people actually buying the products.So this thread has been pretty enlightening and interesting reading for me...in addition to the good laugh above. :-hah Oh, despite my unmet expectations, I did have a good time at FANCON and met some great people there, including yourself.

Maybe you guys should look more seriuosly at X-plane. I would love to see more in the way of serious commercial add-ons for it. I have recently delved into it after a big dissappointment with FSX. I too get much better graphics with FS9 than I can ever hope to with FSX. It be great to see some serious development using X-plane in the area of weather, Vatsim etc etc.Hank Adam

>Maybe you guys should look more seriuosly at X-plane. I would>love to see more in the way of serious commercial add-ons for>it. I have recently delved into it after a big dissappointment>with FSX. I too get much better graphics with FS9 than I can>ever hope to with FSX. It be great to see some serious>development using X-plane in the area of weather, Vatsim etc>etc.>>Hank AdamHank, commercial development for X-Plane will never occur as long as it's a constantly moving target. In that respect, it's a far worse hand that what we've been dealt with FSX + SP1 + SP2/DX10 + Acceleration... :-roll

Steve, I want to thank you again for starting this discussion: it's the mostly useful and productive thread on any MSFS forum I can recall.Some of that of course is just sharing the pain, and purging the frustration, but I think that's cathartic and there are useful and productive suggestions here for the future, both for developers and Aces.Well done, all.Jon

Yes Jon I totally second your words.This thread is mature, clever, positive and useful.Let's make a dream...It will be the plateform for a better future collaboration between the "Titanic" (I wish ACES a better future though) and the talented "speedboats" that make our hobby so fascinating.Thanks to you all.

--Deleted my own to keep the thread mature--Sorry guys... got a little worked up about MS letting everyone down...Steve.

On the contrary. I already have one of my commercially bought planes for X-Plane upgraded to X-plane 9 requirements and improvements and ver 9 is still in beta. Probably to be released around January.Regards Pete

It will be the plateform for a better future collaboration between the "Titanic" (I wish ACES a better future though) and the talented "speedboats" that make our hobby so fascinating.I'll join you in that wish David, as long as the Titanic doesn't sink some of the better little speedboats in its wake...

>I'll join you in that wish David, as long as the Titanic>doesn't sink some of the better little speedboats in its>wake...Yes and I understand and respect their concerns.The "Titanic" needs life rafts and the life rafts won't exist without liners.That's why they should work together.FS without addons is like an empty movie theatre.