20 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

  I would have found it less useful to get in the sim and have a completely different picture from the real C172.

'Completely different'?  Oh, I see.  I'm 1000% certain anyone coming off a desktop sim would figure it out super quickly and moreover one would actually have the sense in the RW that things are coming at them slower, when they have become used to a faster virtual reality.  I can certainly see where the reverse would be true:  desktop sim at 100% zoom AKA slow motion you'd be startled at the pace of evolution of a takeoff in the RW.  The real value in desktop sims is what I said:  avionics, work flow, ATC management, etc.  

The technique suggested by Island Pilot works perfectly, WHEN it works.  But, as has been my experience since November 19, the performance of the sim is wildly variable.

As I said above, I flew my test mission round trip to KSJC and experienced smooth flying, rock solid 60 FPS and no variability.  I then flew a test flight out of KSEE and had perfect flying at 60 FPS until suddenly FPS dropped to single digit and GPU Latency (milliseconds from CPU/API presenting frame until GPU begins processing frame) went from less than 1ms to over 200ms.  No other measures changed.  

Went back to KSJC and saw 60 FPS sitting on runway but 15 FPS as soon as plane began to move.

Shut sim down, restarted at KSEE and saw 60 FPS thru the entire flight.   Went back to KSJC and again had a great flight at 60 FPS with very stable performance measures.

When it works it is wonderful, other times just plain annoying.

 

39 minutes ago, Noel said:

'Completely different'?  Oh, I see.

Why the sarcasm?  The view in the real aircraft will be different from the sim if an inaccurate FOV is set.  There can be no disagreement with this fact.

 

41 minutes ago, Noel said:

I'm 1000% certain anyone coming off a desktop sim would figure it out super quickly and moreover one would actually have the sense in the RW that things are coming at them slower, when they have become used to a faster virtual reality.

Of course, and that is why I desire an accurate FOV in sim - I don't want any difference in the sense of speed between the sim and real C172.

 

42 minutes ago, Noel said:

desktop sim at 100% zoom AKA slow motion you'd be startled at the pace of evolution of a takeoff in the RW.

Again, an accurate FOV in sim negates differences in speed perception to the real aircraft.

 

43 minutes ago, Noel said:

The real value in desktop sims is what I said:  avionics, work flow, ATC management, etc.  

Completely agree with this, but what that has to do with matching the FOV in sim to the real aircraft, I don't know.

7 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

Completely agree with this, but what that has to do with matching the FOV in sim to the real aircraft, I don't know.

My belief is that you are over blowing the real value of what you believe in this discussion.  I have less hours than you do but I can say with absolute certainty it took me NO TIME to adjust to the cockpit of the Moony I flew, of course.  Do you think someone with 8K hours in various desktop sims with a zoom of 50 is suddenly going to make significant mistakes because of that? I just don't buy it is all.  But you do and as you say whatever makes you happy you most definitely should pursue, I know I do 😉

1 hour ago, Noel said:

My belief is that you are over blowing the real value of what you believe in this discussion.

I can agree why you prefer an inaccurate FOV, but I'm over blowing why I prefer an accurate one?  I don't want to have to adjust between the sim FOV and the real aircraft, regardless the time it takes.

Just now, MrBitstFlyer said:

I can agree why you prefer an inaccurate FOV, but I'm over blowing why I prefer an accurate one?  I don't want to have to adjust between the sim FOV and the real aircraft, regardless the time it takes.

I am not sure why you arguing with 'Mr always right'. You would be better off saving your breath. 

1 hour ago, Noel said:

Do you think someone with 8K hours in various desktop sims with a zoom of 50 is suddenly going to make significant mistakes because of that?

Who has mentioned a FOV inducing mistakes? I would highly dislike an inaccurate FOV in sim and you would dislike a FOV on a monitor that doesn't match your eyes peripheral vision.  We each make a choice so what's the problem?

15 hours ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

I can agree why you prefer an inaccurate FOV, but I'm over blowing why I prefer an accurate one? 

I'm saying you are over blowing the value to an aspiring RW pilot of the role of having a more accurate FOV in a desktop sim, that's all, nothing more nothing less.  As we both agreed on it's those other areas that are where the real training value comes.  As you recall this all came when Chris stated he did not believe an accurate FOV would likely matter in a [desktop] flight sim whereupon you said, nope, if it's training you're using the sim for then you need the more accurate FOV.  I don't believe it plays a significant role when it comes to 'training', that's all.

16 hours ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

I am not sure why you arguing with 'Mr always right'. You would be better off saving your breath. 

Said the pot to the kettle, the Pompous One.

36 minutes ago, Noel said:

I don't believe it plays a significant role when it comes to 'training', that's all.

Ok, we disagree there.  In the real aircraft a ground feature could be considerably closer & larger than the sim with a too high FOV (to match peripheral vision in the real aircraft on a monitor).

I tried this last night - ground features were three times further away than reality.  I want to look out the cockpit in either and have the same distances & sizes.

Edited April 21, 20251 yr by MrBitstFlyer

12 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

Ok, we disagree there.

So do you think if someone spent a year on MSFS at its default zoom value not knowing any better, learning everything they could about basics of flight, avionics and flight management, navigation, ATC etc then proceeded on their first intro flight at RW Flight School, they would be significantly impaired operating the plane, blown away by differences in what they became used to?  I don't, I think it would be the opposite:  they would say to themselves, "Wow, this is like slow motion compared to what I'm used to!  I feel like I have time to execute the actions I need to do!  This is awesome I didn't expect that!"

That being said, I can appreciate that same person described above would come back to the sim and probably, not knowing any better, assume the FOV they became used to was just the way it is in a sim and not give it a second thought.  But if they were really sim-focused, not all people would be who move on to RW flying, they might start to explore how make sim match reality better.   So as it relates to training I think FOV plays a minor role in all that is learned in a desktop sim for those using the sim as a training aid.

1 hour ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

I tried this last night - ground features were three times further away than reality.  I want to look out the cockpit in either and have the same distances & sizes.

This seemed odd to me, the 3x larger, from when I tried the more accurate to RW FOV zoom setting for my display.   According to the Oracle it would be 1.48.  Either the Oracle has miscalculated, or your anti-wide FOV bias changed your perception?

In MSFS, the zoom level is essentially a field of view (FoV) adjustment — not a physical "zoom" like a camera lens — so when you go from 74 to 50, you’re widening the field of view, making objects appear smaller and farther away.

To quantify how much farther things appear, we can approximate the change using the inverse relationship between zoom level and apparent size:

Relative apparent size change:

Apparent size at 50/Apparent size at 74=50/74≈0.6757\text{Apparent size at 50} / \text{Apparent size at 74} = 50 / 74 \approx 0.6757Apparent size at 50/Apparent size at 74=50/74≈0.6757

That means:

• At zoom 50, objects will appear about 67.6% the size they did at zoom 74.

• So they’ll seem about 1.48x farther away than they did before.

 

25 minutes ago, Noel said:

So do you think if someone spent a year on MSFS at its default zoom value not knowing any better, learning everything they could about basics of flight, avionics and flight management, navigation, ATC etc then proceeded on their first intro flight at RW Flight School, they would be significantly impaired operating the plane, blown away by differences in what they became used to?

No, I don't think gaining knowledge about basics of flight, avionics and flight management, navigation or atc would be impaired when stepping into the real aircraft - we have already agreed this point.

 

28 minutes ago, Noel said:

they would say to themselves, "Wow, this is like slow motion compared to what I'm used to!

I would say, 'Wow, the view is exactly what I see in the sim - amazing I can replicate reality so closely!' I certainly would not see any value in distorting my view between the two.

7 minutes ago, Noel said:

In MSFS, the zoom level is essentially a field of view (FoV) adjustment — not a physical "zoom" like a camera lens — so when you go from 74 to 50, you’re widening the field of view, making objects appear smaller and farther away.

Yes, we know this.

7 minutes ago, Noel said:

your anti-wide FOV bias changed your perception?

My perception in sim matches reality.

10 minutes ago, Noel said:

• At zoom 50, objects will appear about 67.6% the size they did at zoom 74.

• So they’ll seem about 1.48x farther away than they did before.

Does a zoom setting of 50 give you the same peripheral vision in sim as your eyes would have?

6 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

No, I don't think gaining knowledge about basics of flight, avionics and flight management, navigation or atc would be impaired when stepping into the real aircraft - we have already agreed this point.

Umm, you missed the point I was asking if the different FOV they were accustomed to would impair their ability to do that first flight.  Do you think it would?  They'd be duly flummoxed and that would impair their ability to execute?   

2 minutes ago, Noel said:

Umm, you missed the point I was asking if the different FOV they were accustomed to would impair their ability to do that first flight.  Do you think it would?  They'd be duly flummoxed and that would impair their ability to execute?   

I answered one of the points you made.

I have only mentioned my preference to replicate the FOV in sim to match reality.