2 minutes ago, G-RFRY said:

In 2017 Volvo [owned by China] plans to phase out ICE vehicle production by 2019, China that has a financial interest in ICE vehicles being banned. They own MG also and are looking for more industries to buy up. they can build them in China much cheaper

I'm sorry but what is the relevance here? It's not secret China has heavily invested in battery technology and EV platforms in the past 2 decades leading to them being one of the major battery suppliers in the world for EVs (among other things).

Are you hoping to just say any random thing and hope it bites?

Again, what is the relevance here to any of your original points?

1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Cars of that price are deemed luxury in the UK.

Honestly the luxury tax enacted makes no sense considering the average new car price.

29 minutes ago, Lucky38i said:

I'm sorry but what is the relevance here? It's not secret China has heavily invested in battery technology and EV platforms in the past 2 decades leading to them being one of the major battery suppliers in the world for EVs (among other things).

Are you hoping to just say any random thing and hope it bites?

Again, what is the relevance here to any of your original points?

If you new what went on the UK steel industry just a few weeks ago you would understand.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/another-electric-u-turn-german-car-giant-scraps-promise-to-end-development-of-petrol-engines/ar-AA1GXaoI

https://youtu.be/i3U5uEi9doY

 

21 minutes ago, G-RFRY said:

If you new what went on the UK steel industry just a few weeks ago you would understand.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/another-electric-u-turn-german-car-giant-scraps-promise-to-end-development-of-petrol-engines/ar-AA1GXaoI

I don't get the relation between that link and the UK steel industry ?? Are you sure you posted the correct link ?

That link tells about Audi that suddenly reading "2035" right. (current date of the ban on new ICE vehicules sales in EU)

 

5 hours ago, G-RFRY said:

And EVs are going to have to pay the full road tax in the near future or the taxman is going to lose billions.

I've wondered what will happen to the tax revenue from gasoline when everyone once has an EV and doesn't buy it any more.

You can bet that they've already come up with some new tax scheme to replace the lost gas tax revenue.

Dave

Why not let the Invisible Hand do its work where EVs and ICE vehicles are concerned?

Eliminate the mandates, subsidies, and tax credits for all of it, for every type of vehicle and energy source, and just let *the people* make their own decisions about what kind of vehicle they want.

Focus the funding on research and development instead of silly mandates and wasteful subsidies and boondoggles.

But, no, we can't have those misinformed little people making their own decisions about that, or, come to think of it, anything else, really.

We're moving backwards where liberty is concerned, yet we're told it's all for our own good.  Is it really "good" that we're gradually losing all of our hard-fought freedoms?  

Think about it.

Dave

 

31 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

Why not let the Invisible Hand do its work where EVs and ICE vehicles are concerned?

Eliminate the mandates, subsidies, and tax credits for all of it

Remember the EV mandates and subsidies?  It looks like pretty soon all you'll be able to do is remember them. A certain proposed bill will wipe them out in the US. No word on if surtaxes on EVs will be implemented.

Hook

Edited June 18, 2025Jun 18 by LHookins

50 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

I've wondered what will happen to the tax revenue from gasoline when everyone once has an EV and doesn't buy it any more.

Variable electricity pricing is my guess. Hence the constant adverts to get you to accept a smart meter. Only with one can you be charged different amounts for different times of the day or night.

If every EV owner charges their vehicle overnight that could end up having the highest rates.

Plus there’s the anomaly where domestic energy use has a 5% VAT charge but at a charging station it’s 20%.

39 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

Why not let the Invisible Hand do its work where EVs and ICE vehicles are concerned?

Eliminate the mandates, subsidies, and tax credits for all of it, for every type of vehicle and energy source, and just let *the people* make their own decisions about what kind of vehicle they want.

Focus the funding on research and development instead of silly mandates and wasteful subsidies and boondoggles.

But, no, we can't have those misinformed little people making their own decisions about that, or, come to think of it, anything else, really.

We're moving backwards where liberty is concerned, yet we're told it's all for our own good.  Is it really "good" that we're gradually losing all of our hard-fought freedoms?  

Think about it.

Dave

 

Nothing to think about, the oil and gas industry is already one of the most subsidized industries out there. As much as people think free markets work, in reality they don't in particular markets. Subsidies help promote investment in new technologies it's not just about the consumer but also giving companies a reason to innovate on a particular technology. So many technologies are often stifled due to a lack of funding and many existing technologies that power critical areas function solely off of subsidies and grants, a so called free market could send a lot of that crumbling.

A subsidy is literally funding on research and development, among it's many other purposes.

Not to try and get political here but what freedoms are you losing by having the government invest in providing the people another option for a mode of transport and also making it something that is viable?

31 minutes ago, LHookins said:

Remember the EV mandates and subsidies?  It looks like pretty soon all you'll be able to do is remember them. A certain proposed bill will wipe them out in the US. No word on if surtaxes on EVs will be implemented.

I spoke too soon. It appears that there will be a $250 annual fee for EVs and $100 for hybrids to replace the road use tax lost by these vehicles not buying gasoline. (Taxes on diesel are much higher than gasoline.)

Hook

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/technology/amazon-boss-tells-staff-ai-means-their-jobs-are-at-risk-in-coming-years/ar-AA1GWbve

China aims to dominate the motor manufacturing industry, a BMW EV cost twice as much to manufacture in Germany as an equivalent BYD EV in China.

4 hours ago, Lucky38i said:

A subsidy is literally funding on research and development, among it's many other purposes.

You're correct that subsidies include funding for research and development.  This is a positive subsidy and should be continued IMO.

I'm talking about more direct subsidies like tax credits, rebates, and loans to particular companies.  BTW, several of these loans to certain industries have ended in utter failure and big losses in my country.  These should not exist for any industry IMO.  Tax breaks such as reduced rates or increased deductions, which should apply to all sectors equally, are fine.

I have seen you and others repeat the narrative that oil and gas are the most subsidized industries.  Well, you may be right where other nations are concerned, but not in the USA.  Just check out the following links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies_in_the_United_States

https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs

Oil and gas subsidies are actually quite paltry in the USA.  Ironically, the subsidies are much larger in the EU!  The truth is that despite the big subsidies for EVs, they just aren't very popular no matter how much you'd like them to be.

Dave

22 hours ago, speedyTC said:

However, that is not the real problem. The real problem is what do we do with all the batteries after said EVs are discarded (no one in their right mind would buy a used EV with a degraded power pack however attractive the price may be).

 

Used BEV batteries frequently go on to a second life. These "second life" batteries are no longer optimal for a car but perfectly fine for gridcscale and home electricity storage.

Beyond that, the EU has regulations for battery recycling which are set to be stricter by next year. It was 46% in 2022 and will be far more than that by 2026. The US is way behind at something like 5%.

 

 

In the EU, the electric vehicle (EV) battery recycling sector is experiencing significant growth and investment, driven by increasing demand for electric vehicles and the need to manage end-of-life batteries. Recycling capacities are expanding, and the sector is expected to generate substantial revenue. 

Edited June 18, 2025Jun 18 by martin-w

18 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

Oil and gas subsidies are actually quite paltry in the USA.  Ironically, the subsidies are much larger in the EU!  The truth is that despite the big subsidies for EVs, they just aren't very popular no matter how much you'd like them to be.

Your own study advocates the reasoning for paltry fossil fuel subsidies due the oil and gas being a mature and profitable industry. Unlike in the past where it experienced massive subsidies to promote energy security.

The only difference here is that the US is now heavily subsidising renewables like it once did with fossil fuels as is the case with a lot of emerging technologies. Feel free to find the fuel subsidies the US government granted in the 20th and late 19th century.

 I’m not advocating for the popularity of EVs, I only showcased the continuous growth of EVs with regards to new car sales. While the uptake is slow as EVs are not a replacement to fossil fuels, they have an uptake none the less. 

25 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

BTW, several of these loans to certain industries have ended in utter failure and big losses in my country.

This isn’t specific to renewable technology, not really sure the point this made. That’s how loans work, they make a calculated risk on a particular endeavour. The US government does it all the time. It pays off sometimes and other times not so much, regardless it stimulates the economy.

 

26 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

Tax breaks such as reduced rates or increased deductions, which should apply to all sectors equally, are fine.

This doesn’t make any sense having a mature industry receive the same benefits to an emerging one, how would you expect it to survive? Free market would kill it off cause it never stood a fighting chance. Major ICE manufacturers receive tax breaks to build locally, as opposed to LATAM or Oceania, is that not a good thing?

44 minutes ago, Lucky38i said:

This doesn’t make any sense having a mature industry receive the same benefits to an emerging one, how would you expect it to survive? Free market would kill it off cause it never stood a fighting chance.

You just hit the nail on the head - "the free market would kill it off".  That's exactly what should happen if a product isn't viable and/or nobody wants it.

Instead, you want a certain entity full of people who know little to nothing about energy, automobiles, finance, economics, etc. to pick and choose which industries to help, and impose harmful regulations and mandates on businesses and everyday folks who are just trying to make a living and get through the day.

Our ideologies are diametrically opposed it seems.

I'm watching a slow motion train wreck happen in certain countries and States because of this idea that a certain entity knows best and knows all, giving it the right to lord its authority and will over every aspect of life.

Dave