On 9/11/2025 at 3:48 AM, filou said:

I'm sharing this video that perfectly illustrates the overall immersive atmosphere that XP12 offers in its entirety. Even though it's a month old and version 12.3.0 hasn't been released yet, it's for me and for all airliner enthusiasts, a perfect visual and emotional description. I feel exactly the same way .A masterstroke from the X-Plane team

 

You're absolutely right. This is why Xplane to me is the better platform. 

5 hours ago, blingthinger said:

Naw. The size of the market is irrelevant. They even tried direct slander in their developer's SDK. They happily knock off competitors regardless of size or market cap.

I disagree especially with MSFS getting ported to the PS5. Now if X-Plane were on consoles that might raise Microsoft's antennas. Slander doesn't work because the product has to stand on its own. It is the paying public who decides if a product is successful or not.

The only exception is in the case of Electronic Arts paying for the NFL License to make games, shutting out competition. That doesn't apply here with Microsoft. They can claim that the X-Plane team never take showers and program their game in the nude, so don't buy their flight sim. None of that matters because if the product meets the approval of the paying public then Microsoft has no influence whatsoever. So I disagree with your take.

You used a hilarious word: "need". The fact is that XP/LR was explicitly mentioned in the SDK with malicious intent and even today a couple small things still remain after they cleaned up their mess. That's proactive. Not a passive "let's see what happens if we stick a small toe in this small market". "Need" is irrelevant. If one of the executives (all for whom that sim is a cute pet project) simply wanted to, they'd happily push that active marketing further than just what the 3rd party devs would see. Of course they have no "need". Desire? There was obviously a desire to push harder than "needed". Wouldn't be successful either way though.

The PS5 move(s) is/are a general title migration before they close xbox down entirely. The number of folks creating xbox live/ps5 accounts specifically to access that sim is pathetically small. Smaller than the standalone market itself.

Edited September 25, 2025Sep 25 by blingthinger

20 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

Wouldn't be successful either way though.

I will quietly point out that P3D did take a pretty big hit afaict, while if anything LR did pretty well from msfs.

23 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

The PS5 move(s) is/are a general title migration before they close xbox down entirely. The number of folks creating xbox live/ps5 accounts specifically to access that sim is pathetically small. Smaller than the standalone market itself.

i have all kinds of opinions about that, but the only thing I can say for sure is right now the entire tech industry is quite unhealthy, a lot of changes are happening, and a lot more is still to come.

i really (really really) like where XP has got to, I really like, and more importantly trust where it is going, it still needs a serious group effort to keep the ship upright though.

13 hours ago, blingthinger said:

The size of the market is irrelevant.

99% of addon developers would not agree with you.

I agree there, though I wasn't talking about the addon market. I was in the context of the mega corp vs. the small indie dev.

7 hours ago, mSparks said:

I will quietly point out that P3D did take a pretty big hit afaict

It was more than a big hit if we are being honest. Funny though that I just came across a video today with swiss001 looking back on P3DV6. As he said, the day MSFS came out P3D died. Well, it died in the home consumer space once the addon developers jumped. Unlike Xplane, P3D is only available on one platform and couldn't update fast enough. As far as I know it was not really meant for the home consumer space although they had the academic license. I know it is still being used professionally and for serious training, so they'll be okay in that sense. The professional license is $2750.

The "Kill SIM X" question was posed to MSFS' head a while back and he said the goal is not to kill any SIM. In fact, he said competition is welcomed as it makes everyone better and the consumer benefits. He's just a genuine fan of aviation like so many of us. Right now, I think the flight sim market is about to be the largest and most lively it has EVER been. Companies like ThrustMaster are probably already putting in orders to create new hardware including for PS5. WinWing is just unstoppable at the moment. Personally, I feel like Microsoft is taking the hobby mainstream.

10 hours ago, Rodster said:

They can claim that the X-Plane team never take showers and program their game in the nude

Dang, we have a leak somewhere...

3 hours ago, brinx said:

Right now, I think the flight sim market is about to be the largest and most lively it has EVER been. Companies like ThrustMaster are probably already putting in orders to create new hardware including for PS5. WinWing is just unstoppable at the moment. Personally, I feel like Microsoft is taking the hobby mainstream.

Maybe. I'd say I'm 50/50 that or it peaked in 2019. Things feel like they mostly moved sideways since 2020, FSX still had more steam users than XP12 until fairly recently.

Right now, imho, the price of the hardware needed for a good experience is the limiting factor. 

 

9 hours ago, mSparks said:

Maybe. I'd say I'm 50/50 that or it peaked in 2019.

If that's what you believe that is fine. The rest of us know better. But feel free to check out WinWing's prices for a quick lesson on what happens with "economy of scale" when a market grows then compare it to similar products from 2019 and 2020. No need to report your findings, we already know the answer.

1 hour ago, brinx said:

If that's what you believe that is fine.

It depends too much on how you frame it.

On the one hand, XP12 was Laminars biggest launch ever, msfs2020,2024,dcs,winwing etc is the best we've ever had it.

On the other hand, xbox and intel might not survive, international trade is in the sewer and if you take the 100million xplane mobile and 10 or 15 million msfs accounts who have tried them the people around flightsim today are a tiny, tiny fraction of what they should be.

A basic useable setup that can flight sim is probably at least $2,000, probably more like $3,000

joypad flightsim has seemingly failed.

Msfs on ps5 with a psvr2 will bring that down to like $1,100. That is better, will be growth there, but it is still very much out of reach for most people.

On 9/25/2025 at 9:42 AM, blingthinger said:

The PS5 move(s) is/are a general title migration before they close xbox down entirely. The number of folks creating xbox live/ps5 accounts specifically to access that sim is pathetically small. Smaller than the standalone market itself.

Evidence for either assertion, please...?

1 hour ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Evidence for either assertion, please...?

No I will not give you my wallstreet insider trading source!! 🙂

For 1) Circumstantial evidence. Their own executive alumni:

https://gameworldobserver.com/2025/07/01/former-xbox-executive-microsofts-console-business-is-dead

More recent executive confession from a couple yrs ago:

https://fortune.com/2023/05/05/microsoft-exec-phil-spencer-admits-the-console-war-lost-sony-playstation-nintendo-switch/

I can see them hanging on to the Live services a la Steam. That's relatively easy to maintain and the proof there is that they're branching out to Sony as an additional distribution outlet. Games won't fully die but the hardware side is all but kaput.

 

For 2): Extrapolating Navigraph survey results.

I look fwd into really Bright & Healthy futures for MSFS and X-Plane, as well as, even with some reservation due to external factors, to ED being able to go full Globe with proper Geoid model because although I don't use DCS as a combat sim I really love to feel the "flight" in their aircraft...

And... I keep dreaming of a P3d v7 bombastic announcement!!!!

There's place for all of them in my simmer heart 🤪😻

Edited September 27, 2025Sep 27 by jcomm

2 hours ago, jcomm said:

There's place for all of them in my simmer heart 🤪😻

But is there space for them on your HDD as well?... or will you need to UNINSTALL this one or that one? 😆