Absolutely. And it should not need the community bug report with 300 votes for the devs looking into it, they should see it the moment they use their own sim. Not the first time I wonder if they ever use their own sim tbh... of course they do, but such bugs give the impression they dont...

19 hours ago, Tuskin38 said:

Yes, and they’re working on it. It’s mentioned on the bug list. But it sounds like they need to fix each model individually, it’s  not something that can be applied to every model globally 

If they have to fix each AI model individually, wouldn't it make more sense to just fix the sim itself to work with the way all models were created previously.  I didn't have disappearing landing gear in MSFS2020.  Now using the same models, the landing gear only displays when very close to the AI aircraft.  This doesn't hit me as a problem that needs fixed in the models.  This smacks me in the face as a MSFS2024 regression that should be fixed.

12 minutes ago, PlumCrazy said:

This smacks me in the face as a MSFS2024 regression that should be fixed.

As has been explained in one or more dev Q&As, this is not so. Changing the LOD rules for 2024 3D assets was an intentional design choice in order to keep performance levels high across all scales of hardware, low and high. Unfortunately, throughout the lifetime of MSFS 2020, it was seen time and time again that many developers would not use the LOD system at all, creating one super complex LOD0 that would display no matter the distance. So if a plane was 10 pixels high way off in the distance, you're still having individual pipes and tubes in something like the landing gear drawn, and that eats performance quickly, especially when those models can also be selected by the model matching system for AI traffic, leaving little room for other things that need that performance budget, like clouds.

For models that are in 2020 backwards-compatible mode (i.e. MSFS 2020 packages/addons running in 2024), the 2020 LOD rules still apply, thus causing no backwards compatibility issue. But for models in native 2024 packages, then the new LOD rules apply; this puts pressure on developers to properly optimize their models so single addons aren't monopolizing valuable hardware resources and performance can be consistent across varying sets of addon installs. And, the Asobo team has taken developer feedback about this system to heart, making adjustments to strike a reasonable balance at every SU (and especially SU4 with the new LOD selection curve).

As Jorg as said, issues with Microsoft/first-party assets relating to LOD are being worked on actively (it was a matter of finding new art teams and resources to work on this effort, to ensure good results), with a large number of them landing in SU4 (especially regarding aircraft).

1 hour ago, PlumCrazy said:

If they have to fix each AI model individually, wouldn't it make more sense to just fix the sim itself to work with the way all models were created previously.  I didn't have disappearing landing gear in MSFS2020.  Now using the same models, the landing gear only displays when very close to the AI aircraft.  This doesn't hit me as a problem that needs fixed in the models.  This smacks me in the face as a MSFS2024 regression that should be fixed.

It is also a problem in MSFS 2020. It just sounds like it might be even worse in MSFS 2024 

47 minutes ago, MattNischan said:

For models that are in 2020 backwards-compatible mode (i.e. MSFS 2020 packages/addons running in 2024), the 2020 LOD rules still apply, thus causing no backwards compatibility issue. But for models in native 2024 packages, then the new LOD rules apply; this puts pressure on developers to properly optimize their models so single addons aren't monopolizing valuable hardware resources and performance can be consistent across varying sets of addon installs. And, the Asobo team has taken developer feedback about this system to heart, making adjustments to strike a reasonable balance at every SU (and especially SU4 with the new LOD selection curve).

So, my next question is.....will this solve the AI plane landing gear problem? In my opinion, disappearing landing gear is unacceptable at any distance on the ground (and on final approach) where it would be obvious. That is a lot further out than where it currently stands.

1 hour ago, kevinfirth said:

its ok for us with powerful systems to feel hard done by in respect of this, but we need to remember that we aren't representative of the user base

This is why “graphics settings” exist, to meet everyone’s hardware investment levels.  But this culling/LOD issue is happening irrespective of one’s graphics settings.  It’s just not the path I’m interested in going down again especially when it is possible to implement cull/LOD via additional graphics settings.

1 hour ago, martinboehme said:

reducing the number of polygons in the object.

Agree, and this is handle by the parameters provide to the GPU accelerated functions … but we’re talking about not rendering at all (aka culling) … objects that clearly should be “visible”.  I complete understand and agree with not rendering objects that too far away to really not be distinguished.  But if the algorithm Kevin linked to in the SDK is correct, then it’s simply wrong and/or greatly over simplified in an attempt to increase performance (FPS).

1 hour ago, martinboehme said:

but you can't get good performance if you render all objects at all distances at maximum detail.

Agree, and no one is asking for that … the issue is rendering objects (aircraft gear, lamp posts, cars in parking lots, taxiway signs, etc.) that should be clearly visible but aren’t.  I don’t know if there is a debate, doesn’t seem like there is any debate other than user feedback? Asobo will do whatever they want to do and if FPS is their objective for consoles and PCs will inherit that same objective then I don’t see a future solution in any SU updates.

Sorry, but if you want a list of airports, you’ll have to get it from someone else as I didn’t write them down and don’t plan to revisit MSFS 2024 unless this issue is reversed or an option via graphics settings is provided. But like I said, not really interested in go down this route again of waiting for 3rd party developers to update all their airports … just not gonna happen and frankly impossible to happen within MSFS 4 year dev cycle, been there done that, didn’t happen in P3D and isn’t happening in MSFS 2024.

BTW, I have noticed this issue in new releases of “native MSFS 2024” airports, but again didn’t write down which ones as it seemed to be most of them.

1 hour ago, Christopher Low said:

missing landing gear on aircraft that are clearly visible to the user is unacceptable

I wish that was the only object issue (AI aircraft), many other objects that aren’t visible that should be that suddenly just pop up.  IMHO, this is clearly very simplistic visual quality reduction and not what I would consider good optimization if removing objects from being rendered is the result.

I’ll keep checking back every few months and see if anything has changed, but not holding my breath.

11 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

It just sounds like it might be even worse in MSFS 2024

it isnt.

10 minutes ago, SayAgain said:

But this culling/LOD issue is happening irrespective of one’s graphics settings.  It’s just not the path I’m interested in going down again especially when it is possible to implement cull/LOD via additional graphics settings.

The amount of screen space required before objects switch to less detailed LODs is affected by the graphics settings. The higher the graphics settings, the longer higher detailed LODs will remain on screen before switching to less detailed LODs.

Ultimately it is up to addon developers to create LODs that are appropriate to the object screen size and that fit within the (generous IMO as of SU4) rules that govern which LOD is displayed. If addon developers choose to remove objects completely at certain LODs or not provide lower detail LODs at all, that would be up to the individual developer to address.

1 hour ago, MattNischan said:

, it was seen time and time again that many developers would not use the LOD system at all, creating one super complex LOD0 that would display no matter the distance

So there is no backface culling implemented?

Is this being handled thru Mesh Shaders?

1 hour ago, MattNischan said:

But for models in native 2024 packages, then the new LOD rules apply; this puts pressure on developers to properly optimize their models

As much as I would like to see this happen, content providers will rarely back pedal to prior releases and update them because there is no value in doing so (rarely happened in P3D and doesn't seem to happening in MSFS 2024) ... the approach is the same, do a V2 or new airports only, retro-fitting is rare.  "Pressure" doesn't work, money does.

1 hour ago, MattNischan said:

new LOD selection curve

I'll try and see if this makes any difference when released.  But, I would appreciate some additional option to let me decide on what is good for my hardware and what I consider acceptable performance ... I'm not an FPS chaser, never have been.

 

7 minutes ago, MattNischan said:

The amount of screen space required before objects switch to less detailed LODs is affected by the graphics settings.

BUT, we can't override the 0.5% lower limit below which objects are NOT SHOWN, as per the SDK.

This would benefit from an options slider that changes this value, so those of us with more powerful systems can choose to vary this currently hard coded limit.

1 hour ago, MattNischan said:

As has been explained in one or more dev Q&As, this is not so. Changing the LOD rules for 2024 3D assets was an intentional design choice in order to keep performance levels high across all scales of hardware, low and high.

Isn't that why we have countless graphics settings though? - so people with higher end systems can have a more graphically detailed sim while those with lower end systems can adjust to gain performance.  I don't think my 9800X3D, 5080, 64GB system is going to be brought to its knees because a few AI aircraft's landing gear are rendered...  It's unfortunate when design decisions result in regressions to the sim, regardless of the hardware on which it is played.  I guess this is what Asobo refers to as "optimization"...

2 hours ago, PlumCrazy said:

If they have to fix each AI model individually, wouldn't it make more sense to just fix the sim itself to work with the way all models were created previously.  I didn't have disappearing landing gear in MSFS2020.  Now using the same models, the landing gear only displays when very close to the AI aircraft.  This doesn't hit me as a problem that needs fixed in the models.  This smacks me in the face as a MSFS2024 regression that should be fixed.

As I mentioned earlier, they have managed to break the display implementation of those same models in 2020 as well.  So whereas this wasn't originally a problem something was changed on the back end to also yield the same results of object culling at ridiculously close distances.  

Very little chance you can see an AI do an entire takeoff roll from one end of the runway to the other retaining landing gear the entire time unless of course it's a 2,500 ft or less runway...   Then if they do have gear the next question is will they be round or square.  Because square wheels are all the rage we just don't know it yet...  I invested in a square wheel startup company just last week after seeing how well they worked on airplanes in MSFS... 

Edited November 26, 2025Nov 26 by psolk

8 minutes ago, SayAgain said:

So there is no backface culling implemented?

Is this being handled thru Mesh Shaders?

I'm not totally sure where within what I said would it be implied that there's none of the usual normal culling happening which happens in all modern engines.

23 minutes ago, SayAgain said:

But, I would appreciate some additional option to let me decide on what is good for my hardware and what I consider acceptable performance

I can't say I follow what additional option would be needed; the LOD option that is already in the sim multiplies the screen size before which objects move to the next less detailed LOD. If you want more detail for longer, you can increase that setting. What other option could possibly exist?

6 minutes ago, kevinfirth said:

BUT, we can't override the 0.5% lower limit below which objects are NOT SHOWN, as per the SDK.

This has been changed to be 5x smaller (0.1% screen-size).

8 minutes ago, PlumCrazy said:

Isn't that why we have countless graphics settings though?

It is indeed! That is why the LOD setting in the sim directly controls how much screen space an object can take up before it switches to a lower detail LOD.

10 minutes ago, psolk said:

Very little chance you can see an AI do an entire takeoff roll from one end of the runway to the other retaining landing gear the entire time unless of course it's a 2,500 ft or less runway...

Issues with AI traffic aircraft models incorrectly using the new LOD system and having things like gear culled early (because they don't have sufficiently low detail enough LODs at distance) is something that is included in the things I said Jorg mentioning were being addressed. It's an art issue, not really an engine issue. Appropriately constructed (with the latest limits), you would not need anything like square wheels to keep under the vertex count (1000 vertices from 0% to 1% screen size) and the gear will stay visible long after they would be indistinguishable from the rest of the plane (2-3 pixels).

3 minutes ago, MattNischan said:

It is indeed! That is why the LOD setting in the sim directly controls how much screen space an object can take up before it switches to a lower detail LOD.

Issues with AI traffic aircraft models incorrectly using the new LOD system and having things like gear culled early (because they don't have sufficiently low detail enough LODs at distance) is something that is included in the things I said Jorg mentioning were being addressed. It's an art issue, not really an engine issue. Appropriately constructed (with the latest limits), you would not need anything like square wheels to keep under the vertex count (1000 vertices from 0% to 1% screen size) and the gear will stay visible long after they would be indistinguishable from the rest of the plane (2-3 pixels).

Fingers crossed Matt!  Would love to see them "roll out" a change to the way it's being implemented currently... Thank you for the insights as always