33 minutes ago, V1ROTA7E said:

fun fact: The average long haul pilot (at the place i work) only gets around 20 minutes of actual 'stick' time per year. The rest is spent on autopilot. 

 

Wow, that's gotta be some typo.

Edited February 26Feb 26 by LRBS

44 minutes ago, V1ROTA7E said:

Funny you say that because I feel the same way...somewhat. And to be honest, I feel the same way about the actual plane. I'm a 77F capt and even in real life the plane feels a bit...boring. Hand flying is actually really fun and responsive though. So much stuff happens in the background and the pilot is taken out of most of it. Overall, it's a far less involved aircraft, and honestly, I enjoy planes that are require a bit more attention and work. 

Ultimately to improve your experience with this plane is a shift in mindset. You're flying a 350T airplane into big airports over vast distances. The flying is, by design, boring...but it doesn't have to be (i feel this way about the iniA350 too). Paperwork, fuel planning, airspace procedures, systems monitoring, etc. are your main focus throughout 95% of the entire flight. The plane PMDG modeled is actually quite good at just being a B777...everything else is on how you want to conduct your operation. The feeling of flying a 'mission' requires planning, contingencies, and communication. ETOPS and oceanic stuff will keep you busy, especially if you do things to verify your position or have random failures requiring you to exit ETOPS.

Aside from mindset, things that could be added to improve immersion/life would be stuff that we actually use on a daily basis...the printer, a full fledged ACARS system with performance planning ingrained, reminders, GPS jamming, etc. I think ini and Fenix have simulated most of these 'nice to haves' but they ultimately serve a purpose in MSFS...and that's to keep you immersed. The little things add up.

I'd also say that the plane (along with the iniA350) feel...light. They seem to have a very dumbed down feeling of inertia. But that's hard to replicate without the proper hardware. In the real plane, everything feels stiff and heavy (except for the thrust levers, which drives me crazy...they're as smooth and light as a throttle used for MSFS), especially the tiller. It gives you a sense of weight. Honestly, I think a huge improvement would be a camera addon that simulates the sense of inertia to remind you that you're flying a large plane. 

fun fact: The average long haul pilot (at the place i work) only gets around 20 minutes of actual 'stick' time per year. The rest is spent on autopilot. 

 

 

Great stuff, Captain! What an awesome career you have. You are so right about mindset. I need to expand my knowledge as now i just scratch the surface. I do happy day scenarios without failures. And yes, both feel too light to me. Too nimble. Maybe something like FSRealistic? But i need to up my game. All part if the experience. 

Thanks for sharing your real world experience! 

24 minutes ago, LRBS said:

Wow, that's gotta be some typo.

I think it is true. But word not allowed. 

26 minutes ago, RobJC said:

I think it is true. But word not allowed. 

Yep, we usually fly about 500 to 800 per year, and out of 365 days, I would say we fly about 182 days. So that 2o minutes/year gives less than 7 seconds per flight. Not to mention the 3 t.o/landings required in 90 days. That's why I suspect a typo, otherwise..................

Some excellent reading above, but I am not using this 777 (desktop) simulation to be (or aspiring to be) a real life 777 pilot.

I’m just using this 777 for entertainment, respecting the explicit PMDG 777 manual disclaimer, “It is meant for entertainment purposes only…” I think it does its job well in that regard.

However, thanks for sharing the real life nuances of the real 777, for which airplane I’ve a great deal of respect.

As a frequent 777 (long-haul) traveler, I always thought, if the folks up front, have a boring flight, I’m guaranteed a safe flight.

Cheers…!

Boris sound mod helped a lot. I can hear more things happening now. 

Yes, the Boris Audioworks sound package makes a big difference to the PMDG 777F soundset. Having said that, I am still keen to hear what PMDG can offer with the new improved sounds currently in development. I really like the new PMDG sounds in the MSFS 2024 version of the 737.

As for emulating real world flights, I am about as far away from that as you can get. Quick 30-40 minute circuit flights from gate to gate are my staple diet in flight simulation, and the 777F is no exception 

7 hours ago, V1ROTA7E said:

fun fact: The average long haul pilot (at the place i work) only gets around 20 minutes of actual 'stick' time per year. The rest is spent on autopilot. 

I mean... WHY?  Is this some sort of company mandate?  Why not delay autopilot engagement or click it off sooner?  I usually hand fly the 73 up to 18k, and take the automation off on base, unless there's a good reason not to.

It is absolutely impossible to maintain handflying proficiency if you never do it.  You'll be forced to do it eventually, and when you are, that won't be a low-workload, "normal" flight.  Heck of a time to see if you remember how...

6 hours ago, P_7878 said:

Some excellent reading above, but I am not using this 777 (desktop) simulation to be (or aspiring to be) a real life 777 pilot.

I’m just using this 777 for entertainment, respecting the explicit PMDG 777 manual disclaimer, “It is meant for entertainment purposes only…” I think it does its job well in that regard.

However, thanks for sharing the real life nuances of the real 777, for which airplane I’ve a great deal of respect.

As a frequent 777 (long-haul) traveler, I always thought, if the folks up front, have a boring flight, I’m guaranteed a safe flight.

Cheers…!

I agree with you on a few points.

Where I don't, it's that, as I mentioned before, in the same category of software development, we also have other developers with aircraft products for entertainment who didn't port one product over and over again from different platforms with the same bugs. And the other developers have a disclaimer of the same nature, but with way fewer bugs. At the same time, we are not evaluating a safe or boring flight; we are talking about just a few discrepancies that can be easily fixed for better immersion.

What I really hate with PMDG (all planes) in MSFS2024 is extremely sensitive steering on the ground (was not an issue in MSFS2020). I have tried everything - setting dead-zones in sim, reduce sensitivity...nothing helps. I have very simple joystick and simple rudder/no tiller option selected via FMC options. Fenix and even FLabs are much smoother on the ground.

 

1 hour ago, LRBS said:

I agree with you on a few points.

Where I don't, it's that, as I mentioned before, in the same category of software development, we also have other developers with aircraft products for entertainment who didn't port one product over and over again from different platforms with the same bugs. And the other developers have a disclaimer of the same nature, but with way fewer bugs. At the same time, we are not evaluating a safe or boring flight; we are talking about just a few discrepancies that can be easily fixed for better immersion.

Yes, understood, @LRBS.

While it is meant for entertainment, it's also used with various degrees of (technical) expectations, based on our own individual preferences.

So, if it can be improved further, within the limitations of our simulation software, that would be highly desirable.

10 hours ago, JYW said:

Those are not issues.

They are examples of unrealistic expectations for a $70 consumer desktop flight sim addon.

I'm really curious where the line is drawn on this stuff.

Do I expect developer to implement data buses that communicate using bit logic? No, but FBW did it. 

Do I expect developers to implement variable engine sounds based on ambient temperature? No, but Fenix did it.

I could go on and on but I feel like we've seen plenty examples of developers doing crazy minutae of details in their products (I mean you own A2A products, I don't need to explain the level of detail there), so is @LRBS expectations unrealistic? I mean the TAC stuff alone sounds relatively simple to expect.

4 hours ago, G-YMML1 said:

What I really hate with PMDG (all planes) in MSFS2024 is extremely sensitive steering on the ground (was not an issue in MSFS2020). I have tried everything - setting dead-zones in sim, reduce sensitivity...nothing helps. I have very simple joystick and simple rudder/no tiller option selected via FMC options. Fenix and even FLabs are much smoother on the ground.

I have not noticed any difference in the sensitivity of the ground handling with PMDG aircraft in MSFS 2024 when compared to MSFS 2020. In fact, I have noticed a lesser tendency for the nose wheel to act like a shopping trolley caster wheel when my CH Flightstick Pro joystick needs to be recalibrated (which is getting more and more frequent at the moment; a replacement may well be on the cards).

Edited February 26Feb 26 by Christopher Low

43 minutes ago, Lucky38i said:

I'm really curious where the line is drawn on this stuff.

Do I expect developer to implement data buses that communicate using bit logic? No, but FBW did it. 

Do I expect developers to implement variable engine sounds based on ambient temperature? No, but Fenix did it.

I could go on and on but I feel like we've seen plenty examples of developers doing crazy minutae of details in their products (I mean you own A2A products, I don't need to explain the level of detail there), so is @LRBS expectations unrealistic? I mean the TAC stuff alone sounds relatively simple to expect.

Are you saying that PMDG do not simulate any "crazy minutiae" of details in their products?

1 hour ago, Stearmandriver said:

I mean... WHY?  Is this some sort of company mandate?  Why not delay autopilot engagement or click it off sooner?  I usually hand fly the 73 up to 18k, and take the automation off on base, unless there's a good reason not to.

It is absolutely impossible to maintain handflying proficiency if you never do it.  You'll be forced to do it eventually, and when you are, that won't be a low-workload, "normal" flight.  Heck of a time to see if you remember how...

Hi @Stearmandriver

Appreciated your RW feedback, and your inquiry to @V1ROTA7E, a 777F Captain.

I'm no RW pilot of any kind, and have never been into a real cockpit, except in the Museums...🙂...but I consider myself a veteran long-haul traveler.  Over 20+ years of active long-haul travel, I had chance to fly with DC-10s, 330s, 340s, 748s of LH, MD-11s of KLM, and the 777s of UA/AA.

I'm interested in learning more about such aspects.

First of all, we need to understand the differences between a 3-hour (short-haul) 737 flight and a 16-hour long-haul (777) flight.

So, first, I asked AI (no longer we need to entirely rely on first-hand accounts...🙂....) It's of course understood that while AI is becoming exceedingly (and scaringly) powerful, its feedback must be evaluated with human judgement.

Q1: In long-haul Airbus and Boeing jetliners, when and how autopilot is engaged?

Answer:

"On long-haul Airbus and Boeing jetliners, the autopilot is typically engaged shortly after takeoff, often between 500 and 1,000 feet (or within 5-10 seconds). Pilots, on this Reddit thread, sometimes delay this until 10,000 feet. 

Key Aspects of Autopilot Engagement:
When: While certification allows engagement as low as 100-200 feet (especially in Airbus), many pilots wait until the aircraft is stable and climbing, often around 1,000 feet, to allow for manual handling during the initial critical phase.

etc."

Here was my next question.

Q2: Is there any difference between short-haul and long-haul autopilot engagement usage?

Answer:

"Yes, significant differences exist between short-haul and long-haul autopilot usage, primarily driven by flight duration, workload, and safety procedures. Long-haul flights utilize autopilot for up to 90% of the flight for efficiency, while short-haul involves more frequent manual handling due to rapid, complex, and high-turnaround flight phases. 

Key Differences in Autopilot Usage:
Engagement Timing: On long-haul flights, autopilot is often engaged just 500 feet above the ground after takeoff. Short-haul pilots tend to fly manually to higher altitudes to maintain currency.

etc."

I do understand the need to hand-fly a 777 or a 787 or a 350 all the way to 18,000 ft (for self-training or proficiency), but does it always happen in the RW, with 400 pax back in the cabin of these massive jetliners? In my experience, the pilot actions are (directly and instantly) perceived by hundreds of passengers. The idea, after all, is to make it all as smooth a flight as possible, using the advanced (self-correcting) flight logic inbuilt into these modern airliners.

Once I told a 777 Captain at one of the O'Hare Boarding Gates, "Have a safe and smooth flight!" He instantly replied back with a smile, "That's a very nice thing to say, because, if I've a safe and smooth flight, you and all the other 400 passengers back there will also have a safe and smooth flight." I wonder if he was intending to hand-fly the 777 to 18,000 ft.

There were only 2 occurrences in my 20+ years of long-haul flight, where I believe the Pilot manual intervention was clearly perceived back in the Cabin.

1. The KLM MD-11 ran into severe (and invisible) turbulence, over the Atlantic at 30,000 ft+, and I'm sure the autopilot was disconnected, as the pilots (desperately) moved the airliner up and down the altitudes (announcing their intentions each time), with or without autopilot, while flighting the frightful impacts of the turbulence.
2. The (LH) A340-600, only on one occasion out of my numerous flights on it, significantly bobbed up and down, during the last few hundred feet before touchdown. The A346 was surely being hand-flown, as is normally done, as I understand at that phase, probably by someone for practice. Nonetheless, the feeling in the cabin was not comfortable. 

Otherwise, all my other long-haul flight were uneventful and boring (the way @V1ROTA7E put it), and also the way I preferred, likely and mostly being flown with autopilot authority. 

I'm just curious, that's all. As I said, I'm a traveler, not a pilot, but, over the years, I've learned to trust the judgement of the pilots in charge of the aircraft. Whether they are hand-flying or with autopilot, I would never know, unless it's felt back in the cabin.