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My Citation X 2.0 Extreme impressions

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Been flying the Feelthere Citation X for a couple of years in FSX, and have generally enjoyed that plane a lot, despite the ocassional bug or odd behavor. But an acceptable exterior model, what feels like a realistic flying model and quite a nice virtual cockpit with systems modelled reasonably well (aside from a couple of unfixed annoying bugs), it has made for a pleasant experience over many many hours.I am however a man that loves the buttons and simulation depth, so when I found out that a much more sophisticated version was in the works by Eaglesoft, you can be sure I was excited. Been following this plane for some time, and looking at the various developer screenshots they had posted and reading snippets of information about what was to come, my expectations were quite high.I purchased this fine aircraft the minute I could get some private time with the computer, and as most people would, just jumped right on and took a peak at the goodies. Exterior model is amazing. Really, it's gorgeous. Little details like the antennas, the shock absorber on the front wheel and the curves of the wing. Terrific animations for the doors, spoilers, and even the wheels turning on the ground. Love the winglets. Overall, great great job on the exterior, it is absolutely top-notch.Going into the cockpit, where one does spend most of the time, and I got hit with a *major* disappointment: the virtual cockpit. I don't know if I've been spoiled, I was not expecting PMDG or F1 Mustang level of quality (I had seen the developer screenshots), but what hit me was something that looks like a FS2004 freeware cockpit. There's nothing crisp and delicious about it. The overall vc graphics look flat and dull, like they're not even trying to look real. The 2D popup panels with APU controls, power, hydraulics buttons etc, are terrible, borderline amateurish, and honestly, much worse than the Feelthere version. Heck, you can spot the outside environment through thin gaps between gauges. Not good. The best looking part of the panel is the static circuit breaker area next to the right pilot seat. And what is with those incredibly shiny red buttons on the yokes?And something that bothers me to no end, is that the yoke covers the lower end of the right honeywell screen, with no option that I can find to remove the yoke. I was even considering getting a TrackIR just to be able to look around this yoke. The FeelThere version has positioned the yoke perfectly, so it doesn't cover the flight screens.Zooming to 50% in the VC, the only realistic perspective for me in this aircraft, and buttons and text becomes jerky and difficult to read. Same is not the case with almost all other higher-end payware FSX add-ons that I own.Keys.. Why don't keyboard shortcuts work? Why in the world does a simply CTRL+L to control landing lights not work? Almost none of the autopilot keyboard commands work, so you're forced to use the mouse for almost all operations. Highly annoying, when you've spent years memorizing all those MSFS shortcuts.Modeling of the technical systems, like the FMS and hydraulics are great. Good balance between realism vs button fetisch. In some other add-on aircrafts you have the choice of starting an aircraft in "cold and dark", "before engine start" and "engines running". Here you have cold and dark or engines running, but even starting with engines running, I've found that you have to go through a click some buttons, or the plane won't let you take off without alarms ringing. I'm myself a cold and dark sort of person, having flown advanced planes for decades, but this is not an aircraft for a beginner flight sim pilot, in my personal opinion.Firing up the aircraft, and you get to the enjoy the sound package. From within the cockpit, sounds are mostly excellent. The little clicks you hear when clicking the Honeywell screens or when moving the throttle, are all superb. External sounds are great too, no complaints there at all. Well done!Flying it, well, I have not had the filthy luck of flying one of these in real life, but it feels incredibly real. Very easy to hand fly. Performance feels very accurate. Not excessive climb rates, good glide and realistic feel of speed. I was surprised how little drag the spoilers and flaps created, making the plane somewhat hard to slow down. And going from 0 flaps to 35, creates relatively little lift, which I found a little odd, but again, I don't have a real Citation X to compare to, so don't know if this is true behavior. Overall very very good flight dynamics.Documentation is clear, well illustrated, to the point and as little or as much as you want to read. Good work on that!Frame rates have taken a bit of a hit, where I usually run 24 fps on my system, about 2 years old, I get 15-17 fps in the Citation X 2.0 Extreme.Conclusion? Considering I spend perhaps 90% of my flightsim time inside the virtual cockpit looking at the instruments, this aircraft has been a disappointment, especially considering the relative high price of the product. I've given it about 16-20 hours of active flying time in the past few days, and I'll probably give it another chance, but honestly, I just tried the Feelthere version before I started writing this mini review, and stepping into the Eaglesoft VC again, it felt a bit like a downgrade.I'll probably get hammered by Eaglesoft when posting this, and I can certainly appreciate the incredible amount of time and resources they have invested in this package, but for me personally, it wins in flying model, sounds and externals 100%, but loses terribly in the cockpit which looks dated and not at all on par with other FSX payware add-ons like F1 Mustang or the new ERJ 145.Thanks for reading. Now I'll go and fly some more.

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Totally agree, which is why after I recently purchased this product I ended up returning it within a couple of hours.I don't care how in depth the systems are - releasing such a terrible VC is inexcusable, especially when it's not even friendly on FPS. And by terrible, I don't just mean 'not pretty' - it's unpleasant to use.

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I'd praise the developers that they put so much effort in authentic systems simulation and at the same time succeeded to maintain FPS at very a acceptable level so that this very complex simulation could be still very enjoyable in FSX. Excellent thinking and good balance of complexity vs. FPS. Something I've been waiting for in FSX. Thanks,Dirk.

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Totally agree, which is why after I recently purchased this product I ended up returning it within a couple of hours.I don't care how in depth the systems are - releasing such a terrible VC is inexcusable, especially when it's not even friendly on FPS. And by terrible, I don't just mean 'not pretty' - it's unpleasant to use.
Same here. REFUND baby... The VC is terrible for the price. :(

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Seems like a mostly praising review except for the virtual cockpit textures. I would be interested in somebody posting a few various screenshots of the VC so that we can all form an opinion, and perhaps give the developers a chance to comment on the images if they wish. Any takers much appreciated.

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I will be most happy to take a few over the weekend.So, uhm, am I permitted to add screenshots to this thread, or should I start a new topic?

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I will be most happy to take a few over the weekend.So, uhm, am I permitted to add screenshots to this thread, or should I start a new topic?
Yep, post away. Just make sure you follow the screenshot guidelines (available in my signature) or Staggerwing will beat me up again. Wouldn't mind seeing a few comparison screenshots from Eaglesoft too. Maybe there's something more to this as I've also heard that the VC looks great.......quite a varying opinion.

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To chime in if I may, I own both the Eaglesoft CX v2.0 and the feelthere CX for FS9. The one that got deleted off my HD within a couple of days was not the Eaglesoft. Now regarding the VC, the ESCX2.0's VC is certainly not cutting edge, especially compared to some of the latest planes such as the Mustang, which I own. However, I consider it solidly above average, FS9 or X, better than the feelthere CX VC for SURE. How can someone enjoy the inferior latter for years while trashing the better one within days is just a little bit beyond me? ... :( When it comes to system sim, the ESCX2.0 is one of the best across the board of FS addons. If you are a bizjet junky like me, the ESCX is a must have, period. I consider myself all out for in-depth system simulation and the ESCX still makes me feel like a humble student pilot. Now imagine myself making that system geek claim and then jump on complaining that the VC is not PRETTY enough? :(All the above is of course nothing more than just my personal opinions. And so is this, there are simmers and then there are gamers. It's impossible for the developers to please both crowds, and God bless ES for not targeting at the gamers as their bread and butter.

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Now imagine myself making that system geek claim and then jump on complaining that the VC is not PRETTY enough? :(
Haha, excellent turn of thought. I felt something similar while reading some of the comments and conclusions made before.Thanks,Dirk.

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To get remove the yoke, click on the red ball at the end of the lever just under the captain's yoke on its right side, if that makes any sense. Click it again to have the yoke reappear.I think this mini-review is a fair one; I love detailed and technical sims, but the VC is a disappointment, given what other developers have done recently. I like everything else about the plane despite a couple of minor bugs, which are being worked on. One aspect that hasn't seemed to garner much attention is the plane's documentation...it's pretty good but leaves out a lot of important information, such as location and function of mouseclick hotspots, basic functioning of the FMS, etc. For a plane of this sophistication, I've found myself hungry of additional information that just isn't there, and the ES support forums can be a minefield... :(

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Keys.. Why don't keyboard shortcuts work? Why in the world does a simply CTRL+L to control landing lights not work? Almost none of the autopilot keyboard commands work, so you're forced to use the mouse for almost all operations. Highly annoying, when you've spent years memorizing all those MSFS shortcuts.
There really is a simple answer to the CTRL+L question. Have you not noticed yet that the left and right landing lights are separately switchable? People ask for advanced features and that simply cannot be done by sticking strictly to the sim's default command set.More to the point, have you noticed that this CX has a "Pulselite System*" installed? That is, that the landing and taxi/recog lights "wig-wag" (flash left/right alternately) just like the real aircraft? This feature would not be possible by sticking strictly to the sim's default command set.As far as the ability to create custom assignable keyboard commands, that is a work in progress, and will be made available when ready as a free update.* PulseLite - http://preciseflight.com/

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It's impossible for the developers to please both crowds, and God bless ES for not targeting at the gamers as their bread and butter.
I disagree with this statement. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have both superior systems and visual modeling. Both, when done right, increase total immersion. And several developers have managed to address both sides of the coin to great success. -Alex

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Wow, sure glad you don't have to keep it. :( The last thing we want is for you to be forced to own something you do not like.We've said all along that this aircraft is not a beginners aircraft. In many case you must read and follow real world procedures to operate correctly.If you love buttons and indepth simulation your comments reveal a distinct and shallow assesment of what is contained in this aircraft and what can be accomplished.As a cold n dark fan you've obviously missed the Preflight Configuration Utility Cold N Dark Option.Every Citation Jet I've had the pleasure of sitting in has the same flat grey paint. The reason is to provide a real world non glare finish. You can appreciate that if you are a real world pilot.By flat you probably mean that not every switch or knob is modeled. We tried to find a nice balance between those which are and those which are not.We disagree with you on the 2D Popup appearence but each to his own. Can't count how many hours I have in this bird and have never seen gaps to outside environment so can't address that.There is a red lever below the left tilt panel near what would be the Pilots right knee which hides the Yokes when clicked. A quick scan of our documentaion reveals the fact that this feature found it's way back out of the final revision. This will of course be corrected.Full keyboard shortcut support was not quite finished in time for release but is a work in progress for a Hotfix 1.1 Update.That includes support for Go Flight Hardware. The same holds true for support of custom waypoints and custom holds.In FSX there is a limited number of lighting buss combinations/configurations. The Shift+L combination/configuration is used to support our fully dimmable cockpit text lighting in 2D and VC. The effect is stunning at dusk or dawn and to our knowledge is only available in one PMDG model and is certainly not included in the Wilco/FT product."I've found that you have to go through a click some buttons, or the plane won't let you take off without alarms ringing."Umm, there is a full checklist on the kneeboard and the aural warnings and a glance at the MFD CAWS Warnings will certainly inform you that you are about to kill yourself and your Corporate bosses wife who by the way will not scare the bejesus out of you."I'm myself a cold and dark sort of person, having flown advanced planes for decades, but this is not an aircraft for a beginner flight sim pilot, in my personal opinion."Umm, see our note above about cold n dark and the fact that this aircraft is not for beginners.The system depth in this aircraft is head and shoulders above any FS aircraft in the class and that includes the Wilco /FT product.Here is a challenge we've already issued to owners of both vendors aircraft. Fly a few standard flightplan DME ARCS, Approaches, and Missed Aproaches with both aircraft, make 'em difficult, fly 'em at high speed, then report back with your findings.Framerate discussion have become almost meaningless these days due to hardware, software, scenery, weather, AI addons and any other number of factors you would like to use but I could, if the mods approved, show you a screenshot of the Citation X Extreme V2.0 in FSX/SP2 on my middle of the road system with the counter showing a low of 42, mid of 94, and high of 109. Again, everyones mileage varies but you knew that already.Our Citation X Extreme V2.0 is obviously not your "preferred bird" but thanks for sharing you viewpoint. :( Edit: Here is the FPS shot I mentioned... reduced from 1680X1050 and enlarged the FPS counter to readable level.Will try to get some VC shots later. Thanks for the permission Jeremy.

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To chime in if I may, I own both the Eaglesoft CX v2.0 and the feelthere CX for FS9. The one that got deleted off my HD within a couple of days was not the Eaglesoft. Now regarding the VC, the ESCX2.0's VC is certainly not cutting edge, especially compared to some of the latest planes such as the Mustang, which I own. However, I consider it solidly above average, FS9 or X, better than the feelthere CX VC for SURE. How can someone enjoy the inferior latter for years while trashing the better one within days is just a little bit beyond me? ... :( When it comes to system sim, the ESCX2.0 is one of the best across the board of FS addons. If you are a bizjet junky like me, the ESCX is a must have, period. I consider myself all out for in-depth system simulation and the ESCX still makes me feel like a humble student pilot. Now imagine myself making that system geek claim and then jump on complaining that the VC is not PRETTY enough? :(All the above is of course nothing more than just my personal opinions. And so is this, there are simmers and then there are gamers. It's impossible for the developers to please both crowds, and God bless ES for not targeting at the gamers as their bread and butter.
I really wanted to like the ES CX, and I certainly wasn't put off by the rather flat looking 2D VC initially (I'm a simmer first, gamer second) as I assumed it was to keep FPS reasonable. What I couldn't get over however, was that the FPS were still poor. Not only that, but I found the VC hard to read, as I found the textures were poor too.IMO the simming experience isn't just about an aircraft with perfectly modeled systems - it's about suspending disbelief and imagining you're flying the real thing. When we're spoiled by products such as those by PMDG that cover both form and function, it's hard to accept a product that makes you feel you've taken such as big step back.

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To get remove the yoke, click on the red ball at the end of the lever just under the captain's yoke on its right side, if that makes any sense. Click it again to have the yoke reappear.I think this mini-review is a fair one; I love detailed and technical sims, but the VC is a disappointment, given what other developers have done recently. I like everything else about the plane despite a couple of minor bugs, which are being worked on. One aspect that hasn't seemed to garner much attention is the plane's documentation...it's pretty good but leaves out a lot of important information, such as location and function of mouseclick hotspots, basic functioning of the FMS, etc. For a plane of this sophistication, I've found myself hungry of additional information that just isn't there, and the ES support forums can be a minefield... :(
Comparing our CX documentation to that of the Wilco/FT product is in our view a non starter.Aside from the cockpit clickspot layout what do you need? Have you not read the docs and noted the hidden clickspot menu?The FMS and other documentation is very thorough with descriptions of everything. Users must really apply themselves to learning this aircraft and the curve is rather steep for those used to near default operations.As to our forums, they are in existence for product support only and there is a strict, no bravo sierra policy in place and that is enforced.The policy protects others who are there for support and protects us from abuse by those who should know better but don't. :( If you are looking for tutorials or instructions on how to operate or fly such a complex aircraft that will be limited to a work in progress Quick Start Guide and Video Tutorials at what we call the Chad Channel located here on You Tube: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=0920F352B3D90941Keep in mind that Chad is a real world Citation X Pilot and adviser/consultant for Eaglesoft for the last 18 months or so.Chad is deeply involved in what he calls the best Citation X ever built for FS. :(

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I watched the video and I gotta tell ya, regardless of the opinions of the cockpit, that woman in the back is THE ugliest I have ever seen! Someone please fix that, she hurts my eyes! :(

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I watched the video and I gotta tell ya, regardless of the opinions of the cockpit, that woman in the back is THE ugliest I have ever seen! Someone please fix that, she hurts my eyes! :(
Ours or Wilco's? Frankly the scariness of the shiny plastic female FA in the Wilco/FT Product is well documented.If ours, then simply use the Preflight Configuration Utility to remove her.

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Full keyboard shortcut support was not quite finished in time for release but is a work in progress for a Hotfix 1.1 Update.That includes support for Go Flight Hardware. The same holds true for support of custom waypoints and custom holds.
Excellent news, Ron. These 2 points will make the plane particularly exhaustive to me.Thanks,Dirk.

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Excellent news, Ron. These 2 points will make the plane particularly exhaustive to me.Thanks,Dirk.
No problem Dirk. As you know, some things take longer than others but we are committed to this project over the long term. :(

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All of these other topics aside, what can you tell me (while awaiting screenies) about the VC textures? Is there a possible explanation why some call them A+ while others scores look more like my old high school report cards? Is this all a matter of opinion, or is it possible that there is another explanation. A setting/option of some sort? I'd find out for myself, but I'm waiting for Geof to get the Citation for me for Christmas.......and the flight sim version too :(

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All of these other topics aside, what can you tell me (while awaiting screenies) about the VC textures? Is there a possible explanation why some call them A+ while others scores look more like my old high school report cards? Is this all a matter of opinion, or is it possible that there is another explanation. A setting/option of some sort? I'd find out for myself, but I'm waiting for Geof to get the Citation for me for Christmas.......and the flight sim version too :(
How about I get you a ride in one and you can give me your G1000 Baron to take for a spin or two or three.....

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All of these other topics aside, what can you tell me (while awaiting screenies) about the VC textures? Is there a possible explanation why some call them A+ while others scores look more like my old high school report cards? Is this all a matter of opinion, or is it possible that there is another explanation. A setting/option of some sort? I'd find out for myself, but I'm waiting for Geof to get the Citation for me for Christmas.......and the flight sim version too :(
Mostly opinion. There are limitations in the software used to produce this aircraft. The costs of redoing the visual model/textures useing other software and more recent techniques would have prohibited release at this price point.It is obvious that the VC folks will never be satisfied with this VC and will describe it in derogatory terms such as ugly, inexcusable to release, etc. etc.At the end of the day, it is what it is, and no one is required to purchase or keep the purchase if not satisfied so it's dificult to fathom some of the near venemous criticism. In our view if someone doesn't own it and they are not directly harmed by it what business is it to them. :(
How about I get you a ride in one and you can give me your G1000 Baron to take for a spin or two or three.....
Ahah, a little bartering going on huh. :(

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Mostly opinion. There are limitations in the software used to produce this aircraft. The costs of redoing the visual model/textures useing other software and more recent techniques would have prohibited release at this price point.It is obvious that the VC folks will never be satisfied with this VC and will describe it in derogatory terms such as ugly, inexcusable to release, etc. etc.At the end of the day, it is what it is, and no one is required to purchase or keep the purchase if not satisfied so it's dificult to fathom some of the near venemous criticism. In our view if someone doesn't own it and they are not directly harmed by it what business is it to them. :( Ahah, a little bartering going on huh. :(
Hey Ron-I don't see any of the comments (at least in this thread) as venemous. As an old salt that has been around a while you know every simmer has their preference for what creates their reality. That goes for different sims, products etc. It is a great policy you guys offer -as one can try, and find out for themselves what it is they require. Myself-I go for reality over the cosmetics but to each their own. As everyone knows-there is always a balance between reality, performance, and cosmetics in fs-and all three add to the sensation of reality on a motionless computer screen...and yes I am going to try to barter a ride in Jeremy's incredible creampuff sometime....

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my only complaint with the CX 1.0 was the low resolution textures. Now that seems to be fixed, I don't care much about "immersion" trying to trick me into being there with more 3d nobs and such, then you have everyone complaining about framerate issues instead.

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Hey Ron-I don't see any of the comments (at least in this thread) as venemous. As an old salt that has been around a while you know every simmer has their preference for what creates their reality. That goes for different sims, products etc. It is a great policy you guys offer -as one can try, and find out for themselves what it is they require. Myself-I go for reality over the cosmetics but to each their own. As everyone knows-there is always a balance between reality, performance, and cosmetics in fs-and all three add to the sensation of reality on a motionless computer screen...and yes I am going to try to barter a ride in Jeremy's incredible creampuff sometime....
Probably just me being oversensitive and tired.."I don't care how in depth the systems are - releasing such a terrible VC is inexcusable, especially when it's not even friendly on FPS. And by terrible, I don't just mean 'not pretty' - it's unpleasant to use."This illustrates what I meant but like I said, probably just me and another poor choice of words..Now that sounds like a blast. I know your location but is Jeremy close by?Edit: never mind, just noticed his forum signature.. :(

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