That is not full right rudder, the aircraft is banking to the right because he is flying the IGS kai tak 13, not a good example. You can clearly see him using a fair bit of rudder 10 secs into the vid.A aircraft like the 747 has a huge horizontal stabilizer and will pivot into the wind without the use of rudder.Regards

Looking at the wind sock it appears to be downwind??????Bill Bridges

The windsock does appear to be indicating the wind is a tailwind for the plane, but that could be an optical illusion. Unfortunately, the number of videos that show aircraft making high crosswind landings from behind appear to be limited. Most show the plane from the front until after the plane either has landed or from an angle that doesn't show much.OK, how does a horizontal stabilizer help with yaw and not a verticle stabilzer? RJ, that goes against everything I learned from an early age about what does what on an airplane.

The windsock does appear to be indicating the wind is a tailwind for the plane, but that could be an optical illusion. Unfortunately, the number of videos that show aircraft making high crosswind landings from behind appear to be limited. Most show the plane from the front until after the plane either has landed or from an angle that doesn't show much.OK, how does a horizontal stabilizer help with yaw and not a verticle stabilzer? RJ, that goes against everything I learned from an early age about what does what on an airplane.

Sorry mate, Not sure why I typed horizontal rather then vertical. Regards

That is not full right rudder, the aircraft is banking to the right because he is flying the IGS kai tak 13, not a good example. You can clearly see him using a fair bit of rudder 10 secs into the vid.A aircraft like the 747 has a huge horizontal stabilizer and will pivot into the wind without the use of rudder.Regards

Rob, it's obvious that during the first seconds of the video he has full(?) right rudder while the left aileron is raised in order to keep the plane from banking, and he does the same, although to the opposite direction in order to de-crab. Maybe he was forced to do this quite extreme move as it looks like he somehow missed the runway pathline during the turn, but still shows that rudder is being used for flightpath corrections.It's quite probable that rudder should not be used during high speed/cruise, but at low speeds and high winds I think that it's inevitable.Anyway, whatever the reason cross-wind landings are some of the most impressive maneuvers with planes! :(

That doesn't look like full right rudder but I really don't want to argue that point. Using a video of poor landing technique in extreme crosswinds on the IGS 13 at Kai tak is not a good example of how to 'correctly' fly a crosswind approach.My original question was regarding proper technique during a crosswind approach. My main point is this - If you were to go for a interview and sim check with a company today and you used the rudder 'before the de-crab' don't expect to hear back from the operator. It is considered very poor technique in large category aircraft. I dont like quoting other forums but hopefully this will clear things up http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/419161-b737...-questions.htmlAlso if Bumpyflight is reading this (you know who you are) please stop posting pretending to be a A321 Captain, it's embarrassing and gives us simmers a bad name.Regards

For me the Ruder in FS is unrelistic!In the Vido with the 747.He had put th eruder jsut a little bit to the Left to de-crab and th eplane de-crabed very fast.In FS you cant do that even with full ruder to Left.Sad but True FS just not simualtes the Ruder

For me the Ruder in FS is unrelistic!In the Vido with the 747.He had put th eruder jsut a little bit to the Left to de-crab and th eplane de-crabed very fast.In FS you cant do that even with full ruder to Left.Sad but True FS just not simualtes the Ruder

Doesn't show a lot of knowledge and qualification if you argue about the realism of flight simulation software, comparing it with a less than perfect IGS approach into Kai Tak on a poor quality youtube video... Especially if you've never flown a real airliner before...Cheers,Markus

Sorry for stating the bleeding obvious but can I just check that everyone is comfortable with the difference between track and heading? That you do not go in the direction you point? And that your rudder will not change the direction you fly in, only the direction you point your nose! A 10knot wind blowing due south will blow your aircraft 10NM due south every hour. It doesn't matter what speed you are doing, or what direction you are going in, the air you are traveling through has moved south and brought you with it. With this in mind, to get from A to B (on the ground) you point your nose from A to B, and then you adjust your heading into the wind so over the time the journey will take you, the wind will have blown you back on track. When on final approach, you want your track to take you down the centerline of the runway, so you need to point your nose upwind by the appropriate amount, how much upwind depends on the crosswind and your time to touchdown. Then just before touchdown, if required because the nose is still pointed into the wind and because most aircraft have landing gear which points in the same direction as the nose, the rudder can be used to turn the nose of the plane towards the centerline. This is only done so the wheels will hit the tarmac in the direction they are designed to turn in, which reduces impact, wear and damage.This has nothing to do with crabbing, de-crabbing, sideslip or crossed controls. All of which are advanced techniques which use the above facts to achieve deliberate and specific aims.

Thanks Paul.

Thanks Paul.

Dan,I had lunch today with a guy I flew with in SE Asia who flies B777s for an international airline. They use rudder to align the nose and aileron to stop the drift to a max of 38 knots. He also indicated the autopilot basicly does the same thing in Autoland. To quote one of my favorite captains while taxing in after an FO used left rudder only (almost a ground scrape) to align the nose in a right crab "next time better use some right aileron when you align this DC-10's nose with the runway". Bill Bridges

When on final approach, you want your track to take you down the centerline of the runway, so you need to point your nose upwind by the appropriate amount, how much upwind depends on the crosswind and your time to touchdown.

for the OP : now you are in crab (note: and tis can be done with aileron only): nose upwind to compensate wind drift.

Then just before touchdown, if required because the nose is still pointed into the wind and because most aircraft have landing gear which points in the same direction as the nose, the rudder can be used to turn the nose of the plane towards the centerline. This is only done so the wheels will hit the tarmac in the direction they are designed to turn in, which reduces impact, wear and damage.

for the OP: this is "de-crabbing" in which you give rudder opposite wind direction just enough to align the nose with runway centerline. Since rudder input makes your wing bank you compensate with aileron to prevent wing or engine strike (aileron opposite rudder direction). This cannot be done without rudder.Hope this make it more clear now.

It looks like there are quite many different opinions on the subject (some of which have more validity as they come from people who fly for a living); however I have the sense that the whole discussion is somewhat based on a misunderstanding or wrong wording by some of us.I have the feeling that we all -or at least most of us- agree that rudder should not be used at all during any phase of the flight, with the exception of aligning the nose of the plane with the runway, during a cross-wind landing (assuming that this is desirable) or if there's an engine failure.Do I get it right now or am I still missing something?Cheers guys!edit: Dieter was a bit faster than me... :( :D

BTW to see crab and de-crab in action see following vid on youtube : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrOUMupz6rM&NRIt is the A380 Crosswind landing vid.The reason for not using in full flight is that it stresses the tail too hard and could cause structural damage.There has been an episode on National Geographic's aircrash investigations in which a pilot did use full left rudder then full right rudder repeatedly resultingin tail being wripped off, spiral dive and crash.And rudder is also being used when taxiing ;) and on take off roll with crssowind

Just to clear this all up guys here is what I was trying to find out.I completely understand how it is done in the real world and what's required from operators in the sim and during check rides . My question was regarding FS9/FSX (using a yoke & Rudder) do you find FS behaves realistically in crosswind situations? I correct with Aileron only and use the rudder to decrab and would like to improve, I'm wondering how others rate themselves in this area and maybe share some tips. It seems that a few here are using the rudder "Before the De-Crab" despite it being frowned upon in the industry, but hey it's just FS we're not getting paid and could even use slew if we want! :) I have always felt that PMDG, LVLD and all the other top end payware are excellent technical study sims, and even though I realize a great deal of effort and skill is put into the flight dynamics we are still using the MS platform with it's many faults. For this reason I tend not to handfly much and focus on smooth operation of all the autopilot modes and dealing with failures through the QRH, however I am always looking for ways to improve when I do switch of the automatics.Regards

Just to clear this all up guys here is what I was trying to find out.I completely understand how it is done in the real world and what's required from operators in the sim and during check rides . My question was regarding FS9/FSX (using a yoke & Rudder) do you find FS behaves realistically in crosswind situations? I correct with Aileron only and use the rudder to decrab and would like to improve, I'm wondering how others rate themselves in this area and maybe share some tips. It seems that a few here are using the rudder "Before the De-Crab" despite it being frowned upon in the industry, but hey it's just FS we're not getting paid and could even use slew if we want! :) I have always felt that PMDG, LVLD and all the other top end payware are excellent technical study sims, and even though I realize a great deal of effort and skill is put into the flight dynamics we are still using the MS platform with it's many faults. For this reason I tend not to handfly much and focus on smooth operation of all the autopilot modes and dealing with failures through the QRH, however I am always looking for ways to improve when I do switch of the automatics.Regards

Well that should be a simple one : since the weather model is not realistic enough - even has flaws - therefore any crosswind simulation isn't either.But maybe you could check out other weather engines; the one I use is REX (Real Environment Extreme) and some of the issues with the weather are bypassed or reduced so it does give an improvement on weather modelling...