Bluestar when you are a pilot just one question:If you would put full ruder imput to the RH side of the plane and full aileron imput to the left would the plane still fly in heading or would the plane start to roll and crash?

Why are You so much into Flight 427? It depends on plane etc..."Based on the evidence developed during the course of this accident investigation, ALPA believes that the airplane experienced an uncommanded full rudder deflection. This deflection was a result of a main rudder power control unit (PCU) secondary valve jam which resulted in a primary valve overstroke. This secondary valve jam and primary valve overstroke caused USAir 427 to roll uncontrollably and dive into the ground. Once the full rudder hardover occurred, the flight crew was unable to counter the resulting roll with aileron because the B737 does not have sufficient lateral control authority to balance a full rudder input in certain areas of the flight envelope."

Oh alright.Now i did understand.Thanks EDIT:Is it in real life too that when you put the ruder to th eleft the plane goes left and then when you let the ruder the plane goes right again?and the same opposite?

Step (on the rudder pedal) in the direction you want to yaw. There is an old book titled 'Stick and Rudder' by Wolfgang Langewieche from the 1940's but is probably still the best source for reading about the basics. Amazon has it.

Step (on the rudder pedal) in the direction you want to yaw. There is an old book titled 'Stick and Rudder' by Wolfgang Langewieche from the 1940's but is probably still the best source for reading about the basics. Amazon has it.

Indeed Dan,Don't know the book, but equipment has changed over the years, however the basics didn't.Your way to do a x-wind landing is basic, same as goes for the more heavy planes today.Interesting discussions on the forum here.The final question is:I will land this plane with a crab-angleORI know how to do a decent crosswind landing.Both options require some study.Regards,HarryKicking out the crab angle at the very last moment is no option for anything more heavy than a sailplane.

Then you already know the answer. Why don't you share it?

Probably because it's too basic.Regards,Harry

No i mean.Is it in real life too that When you move the Ruder to the left that the plane goes to the elft and when you let the ruder it goes to the right?Because in FS its so.

Kicking out the crab angle at the very last moment is no option for anything more heavy than a sailplane.

Harry,Now that's a weird statement. On the contrary, it seems to be widely used, especially on a dry runway (without autoland).See the comments above and especially :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosswind_landingorhttp://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showtop...t&p=1787570Rgds, Bruno

Harry,Now that's a weird statement. On the contrary, it seems to be widely used, especially on a dry runway (without autoland).See the comments above and especially :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosswind_landingorhttp://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showtop...t&p=1787570Rgds, Bruno

Aswell as plenty of videos available of exactly that with 747's, 777's and even the A380.

It is obvious that you do not agree with what I am saying, which is fine. I have seen pilots use your technique with mixed results. The problem comes when the pilot misjudges the amount of rudder needed or runs out of rudder in a strong crosswind, then what? As I said earlier I have used the rudder to align the nose while lowering the upwind wing to stop the drift in everything I've flown DC-3s to DC-10 and will use it this afternoon.

Funny how you think he's talking about a different "technique". Paul never said DON'T lower the upwind wing. You are both essentially talking about the same thing, transitioning from an approach crab to a landing, aligning the fuselage with the runway. To minimize drift during the transition maneuver, you lower the wing, essentially setting the plane in a sideslip for a moment. If you can't lower the wing because of pod clearance, land crabbed.The biggest questionmark in this thread is what do some want to use the rudder for during the approach, except for keeping the flight coordinated?And finally, no, FS simply does not get the winds right. They are much more dynamic.

No i mean.Is it in real life too that When you move the Ruder to the left that the plane goes to the elft and when you let the ruder it goes to the right?Because in FS its so.

No it isn't, in real life and in FS if you move the rudder left, the plane points to the left, it does not go left. This is the difference between heading (where you point) and track (where you go).

Paul,It is obvious that you do not agree with what I am saying, which is fine. I have seen pilots use your technique with mixed results. The problem comes when the pilot misjudges the amount of rudder needed or runs out of rudder in a strong crosswind, then what? As I said earlier I have used the rudder to align the nose while lowering the upwind wing to stop the drift in everything I've flown DC-3s to DC-10 and will use it this afternoon.Paul, what is your aviation background? Bill Bridges

I am not disagreeing with you, I am trying to find out what exactly your technique is, as you haven't actually said. Perhaps after 40 years you think it is so obvious that it does not need to be stated, but please state it anyway, step by step. On the other hand, you seem to be disagreeing with me, "...I assure you there will be drift...". Of course there will drift! From the time you introduce the rudder to change your heading to match your track, until the time that the tyres grip enough to resist the side forces. How much drift is that? How long does it take to introduce 8degrees of yaw? Is it enough to worry about? Is that worry greater then the worry of a pod strike? How difficult are the corrections required and what are the consequences of not getting them right? I am not saying sideslip should not be used, I am saying sideslip should not be used unintentionally. Which would you recommend to a begineer? One rudder movement at flare or balancing a sideslip with ailerons and counter rudder while maintaining track on the centerline? You have learned to manage that balance but I bet it still holds your full attention.

I am not disagreeing with you, I am trying to find out what exactly your technique is, as you haven't actually said. Perhaps after 40 years you think it is so obvious that it does not need to be stated, but please state it anyway, step by step. On the other hand, you seem to be disagreeing with me, "...I assure you there will be drift...". Of course there will drift! From the time you introduce the rudder to change your heading to match your track, until the time that the tyres grip enough to resist the side forces. How much drift is that? How long does it take to introduce 8degrees of yaw? Is it enough to worry about? Is that worry greater then the worry of a pod strike? How difficult are the corrections required and what are the consequences of not getting them right? I am not saying sideslip should not be used, I am saying sideslip should not be used unintentionally. Which would you recommend to a begineer? One rudder movement at flare or balancing a sideslip with ailerons and counter rudder while maintaining track on the centerline? You have learned to manage that balance but I bet it still holds your full attention.

I would like to add one further question, if I may. I have always had difficulty in understanding precisely how it is that "crabbing" the aircraft differs from placing her in a "sideslip", since both techniques seem to involve opposed rudder and aileron application. Is it the degree, timing and duration of that rudder application during crosswind landings that distinguishes a crab maneuver from a sideslip, or are the terms actually interchangeable ?Thanks,Tony Selario

I would like to add one further question, if I may. I have always had difficulty in understanding precisely how it is that "crabbing" the aircraft differs from placing her in a "sideslip", since both techniques seem to involve opposed rudder and aileron application. Is it the degree, timing and duration of that rudder application during crosswind landings that distinguishes a crab maneuver from a sideslip, or are the terms actually interchangeable ?Thanks,Tony Selario

Crabbing doesn't require rudder, you are just pointing the aircraft into the direction of the wind a few degrees more than you would without wind (depending on strength), countering the cross wind. If the aircraft was pointing a straight heading it would drift away with the wind. Crabbing is easily noticed during autopilot even when in cruise during a gross wind. In the MD-11 for example in the nav display you can see the little aircraft synoptic it isn't lined up with the flight path and up the top on the compass rose the little green diamond shows the track while the white number is the heading the aircraft is pointing. No rudder is used. The rudder is only needed when you want to decrab before touch down to line up straight with the runway (if done too early in heavy wids and you can drift too much before touch down)Side slip however allows the aircraft to track the runway heading (while facing the runway) without the nose needing to point in the direction of the incoming crosswind, it is maintained with a mix of banking (ailerons) and rudder input constantly being adjusted to maintain heading and track. However touching down this way you have to keep in mind one wing will be lower so you need to be careful of a wing/pod strike or gear damage especially if a sudden gust appears. Extreme side slip is also used to reduce alt or speed of a hot and high aircraft in a emergency as the extreme yaw angle increases drag.

I would like to add one further question, if I may. I have always had difficulty in understanding precisely how it is that "crabbing" the aircraft differs from placing her in a "sideslip", since both techniques seem to involve opposed rudder and aileron application. Is it the degree, timing and duration of that rudder application during crosswind landings that distinguishes a crab maneuver from a sideslip, or are the terms actually interchangeable ?Thanks,Tony Selario

Hi TonyMay I suggest you read the article below, I think it does a very good job at explaining the different techniques used :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosswind_landingIn short, when a plane is crabbed, the airplane is flying "normally", with wings horizontal. It is crabbed because its track is different from its heading (and that is the way a plane flies as long as there is a crosswind component). On the other hand, in a side slip, the wings are not horizontal and the plane is ...guess what : slipping !Note 1 : The wiki link was posted by Rob at the very beginning of this thread. If you read it and a few other posts in the first page of the thread, you are all set. Note 2 : (not for you specifically Tony). It must be harder to understand the question for someone who has never had a chance to pilot a real plane.... One more reason to take a flying lesson as soon as there is an opportunity ! :( Regards,Bruno

Jay I thank you for the clear explanation of these terms that have baffled me for so long . I now understand better where the term "crab" arises, in that the aircraft's forward velocity is coupled with a crosswind-induced sidelong "crab walk" component that doesn't necessarily require rudder application to achieve, while a side-slip entails that one-wing-low-into-the-wind attitude that is evidently not advisable on short finals for heavy metal jets with low-slung wing-mounted engines.I also appreciate the Wikipedia link you posted, Bruno, and I will re-read it now for a better grasp of the subject. For sure one of these days before my whiskers turn grey I would like to fly a real plane, if only to see how true to life my endless FS9 flight sim hours have been all along, and maybe also to see if I can perform a real crosswind landing as expertly as I think I can a virtual one. RegardsTony Selario