I know pilots contact atc before departure for the departure runway, but when the fmc is being programmed for a star which requires an arrival runway.. how do they know which runway to program in with the star. Or do they wait until they get there approach breefing?

I know pilots contact atc before departure for the departure runway, but when the fmc is being programmed for a star which requires an arrival runway.. how do they know which runway to program in with the star. Or do they wait until they get there approach breefing?

I'm curious about this myself.

In the real-world the pilots have a dedicated company flight dispatcher that can update the crew on the probable arrival runway.For simming, your best bet is to check the weather for the arrival airport - lots of internet sites have this info - and figure out which runway suits the winds. If you're on an online network like VATSIM, you can check with the comtroller, or consult the ARTCC's website for the preferred runways...

Usually, Dispatch, at the departure airport, will hand you with the latest weather at your arrival airport and give you probable approaches that you can expect at your arrival airport. Clearance for a specific STAR is indeed done in-flight. The approach controller will guide you for your descent and clear your accordingly for an approach. The maximum that one can do is plan for a general approach based on current or predicted weather before they get to know what arrival they will be expected to follow.Cheers,

If it was a major airline with a flight operations centre, flight operations would provide the pilot with his flight plan including the preferred STAR.Otherwise the pilot would have to do his own homework including weather at the destination airport and he would file the appropriate STAR.Most major airports have preferential runways published and or the pilot would know by experience what those airports preferences were.Example Toronto will stay on the 5 or 6's and or the 23'and 24's as much as possible. I have even seen them hold those runways in some pretty good crosswinds.The active can change at any time and a pilot would not bat an eyelash at reprograming the FMC for any change to the STAR. So basically whatever is planned when you leave means nothing anyway as it can change in a moment’s notice and a pilot must always be prepared to accommodate that change.

Clearance delivery will assign a sid to you when you call to get your flightplan cleared. Its common to program that part of the route during taxi / push & start. You can often know which runway to expect by listening in to the ATIS for your departure runway, the ATIS will often contain info about which runway to expect, so if the airport uses runway specific DPs / sids then that makes it fairly easy to predict which sid you'll get cleared for. STARs are also often assigned mid-air, some time before the top of descent ("Speedbird 123, you are cleared for the OCKHAM 4 BRAVO arrival, descend at pilots discretion to cross HAZEL at FL130)

Clearance delivery will assign a sid to you when you call to get your flightplan cleared. Its common to program that part of the route during taxi / push & start. You can often know which runway to expect by listening in to the ATIS for your departure runway, the ATIS will often contain info about which runway to expect, so if the airport uses runway specific DPs / sids then that makes it fairly easy to predict which sid you'll get cleared for. STARs are also often assigned mid-air, some time before the top of descent ("Speedbird 123, you are cleared for the OCKHAM 4 BRAVO arrival, descend at pilots discretion to cross HAZEL at FL130)

OCKHAM 4 BRAVO is a bad example for two reaons. First it doesn't currently exist - there are OCK 1A ,1D, 1F see http://www.ead.euroc..._2010-07-01.pdf : and OCK 4B, 2C, 2E see http://www.ead.euroc..._2011-04-07.pdf : OCK 1G, 1H see http://www.ead.euroc...2010-07-01.pdf. The latter are only for transfer of aircraft between terminal holding facilities by ATC and are not used for flight planning. Second and more importanly , all UK SIDs that I am aware of, terminate at a waypoint witn an associated hold from which an approach can be made to any runway.direction. Having arrieved at OCK aircarft are normally radar-vectored to the landing runway. If radar vectoring isn't available aircraft will use the following Initial Approach Procedure - http://www.ead.euroc..._2010-03-11.pdf and http://www.ead.euroc..._2010-03-11.pdfIn the UK the choice of SID is determined by the last leg of the airway being flown. The charts for OCK 4B show it's used for arrivals via (U)L980 and (U)P87 airways regardless of the actual runway in use so the STAR can be entered in the initial flight plan. It wouldn't be assigned in mid-air

Alternatively,you can do what I do.Currently,using the Trial Version of Aivlasoft's Electronic Flight Bag,----which I will be buying at the end of its Trial,-----I can tune in to the ATIS at the arrival airport as well getting live arrival airport METARS,and that way I know which runway I'll have choices to land at,and the EFB also gives me the STAR for that runway. Since I discovered this program,no more do I have to worry which STAR can I choose and input into my FMC

The simple answer is: STARS are assigned depending on your direction of flight

So given the above information how can you use SID STAR's etc and the default MS ATC? I can tell you what i do, i cancel the flight plan about 50 miles out and fly in VFR (atc), if i get that "airport only IFR" i just ignore. This isn't ideal wondering if anybody does something different (read better).Thanks

So given the above information how can you use SID STAR's etc and the default MS ATC? I can tell you what i do, i cancel the flight plan about 50 miles out and fly in VFR (atc), if i get that "airport only IFR" i just ignore. This isn't ideal wondering if anybody does something different (read better).Thanks

SIDs and STARs aren't programmed into the default ATC. The default ATC will give you random headings for approach and finally clear you for your ILS runway, etc. For incorporation of SIDs and STARs, using a 3rd party application is necessary. For example, Radar Contact, Pro Flight Emulator, etc.The default ATC has the habit of throwing you around, vectoring you with random headings and finally clearing you for ILS. To say that the default ATC is 'rubbish' would be an under-statement.Cheers,

SIDs and STARs aren't programmed into the default ATC. The default ATC will give you random headings for approach and finally clear you for your ILS runway, etc. For incorporation if SIDs and STARs, using a 3rd party application is necessary. For example, Radar Contact, Pro Flight Emulator, etc.The default ATC has the habit of throwing you around, vectoring you with random headings and finally clearing you for ILS. To say that the default ATC is 'rubbish' would be an under-statement.Cheers,

Thanks for the info. If one doesn't have any of those third party programs, is it best to just disable AI traffic and skip using the ATC altogether if you plan on using SIDs/STARs routes? (e.g. in my MD-11)?

It completely depends on your preference. If you don't like AI traffic flying around restricting you from flying that perfect SID or STAR, then you can disable AI all together.In that case, might I suggest flying on VATSIM/IVAO as there you will be able to follow SIDs and STARs and have active traffic flown by other users following the same procedures and of course getting the ATC that a flight simulator deserves. When I'm not flying on VATSIM, I still fly real-world routes and I haven't had any AI conflicting with my flight plan. I use both SIDs and STARs and I've probably had a few near misses but nothing that would demand me to disable AI. Without AI, FS world would be 'dead' and not fun to fly in at all. Then again, everybody has their own opinion on how they want to fly and how flooded their environment needs to be. That would also mean that you'll have to refrain from following certain commands from ATC while approaching or departing as they'll throw you around and that will not gel very well with your set SID/STAR.While using default ATC, I would take my IFR clearance and eventually take-off clearance and not contact ATC until I'm descending to my destination. After reviewing the weather conditions and the runways in use by AI, I would then select the appropriate STAR and follow that until ATC hands me off to tower. I recommend keeping your AI traffic enabled and trying out a few flights out of busy airports such as Heathrow,Frankfurt,etc and see if they cause any trouble. As for using SIDs and STARs, you will be the only one flying those as ATC in FS isn't configured to designate them to you or AI.I believe Radar Contact 4 is easier to manage when it comes to SIDs and STARs as hardly any planning from the user side is necessary. I'm willing to be corrected on this as I'm not an expert with RC4.Hope this helps :)Cheers,

Thanks for the info. If one doesn't have any of those third party programs, is it best to just disable AI traffic and skip using the ATC altogether if you plan on using SIDs/STARs routes? (e.g. in my MD-11)?

No, stock ATC has its uses as long as you're willing to play along without it from time to time.Back when I used stock ATC, I would set up my enroute waypoints and then see if there was a SID that suited my route and the active runways.I'd activate the route I wanted, call clearance delivery, then ground for taxi and finally tower to takeoff.I'd maintain comms after being handed over to my first Center, but when it came time to be handed off again, I'd acknowledge the handoff but never contact the 2nd Center. That way I was free from the silly "game of handoffs" MS ATC plays. (Not to mention its equally annoying "game of vectors" when it's time to land.)Then when I would be a few hundred miles or so from my destination I'd use my EFB METAR screen to get the current FSX weather for the airport and the EFB Approach and STAR selectors which would give me the likely active runways. I'd pick an approach and a STAR if one were available, and send it directly from EFB to my GPS if I were flying lite, or key the procedure names into an FMC if I had one.When I'd get close to the airport I would often cancel IFR and fly under my own control and call up Tower on my own, or I'd wait until I was at the IAF and say hello to ATC again which would give me over to Tower and I'd get clearance for landing. (Which itself often didn't work, so I'd land VFR... unless the airport was IFR only... then I'd just squawk 7700 and set down on the runway to no one's surprise.)But since VoxATC version 6 came out, I've given up FSX ATC and use VoxATC constantly. It has strong built-in support for SIDs and STARs. Plus since VoxATC controls AI aircraft, you'll see other aircraft flying the same departure and arrivals as you (as well as other realistic real-world procedures - not to say everyone flies the same procedure). With stock AI it's as if you're the only one in the sky trying to fly correctly and everyone else are literally scatterbrained. With VoxATC it's quite different - It's oddly satisfying to see lines of aircraft all following similar paths and hearing them communicate such with the local controllers.

VoxATC

Thanks I had never heard of this, going to download and give it a go. I echo all your concerns regarding the default ATC, i hate those wobbly vectors. You do pretty much what i do, use ATC for take-off, don't change stations and dial again when close.