Ifly 737 NG FSX vs PMDG 737 NGX

[Rocky_53 1,581]

Some interesting posts guys. Here's something that recently occurred to me regarding the 30 day money back guarantee that iFLY offer. I bought the iFLY based on the fact that it had a 30 day money back guarantee, that at first I thought I may take, but I am now happy and thankful that I didn't. However, when the PMDG arrives I will have an option to but or not to buy. If the PMDG does not have a similar guarantee of 30 days or similar, then I will not take the chance that it is a better machine, or in fact that it would satisfy my personal needs. I'm sure many others will feel the same, after all, having invested in a plane that you are happy with why bother? BUT if PMDG does offer a money back guarantee IMO it says that 1) virtually everyone who owns the iFLY will purchase it based on this understanding and 2) it also says that PMDG are so confident that it is superior to the iFLY that people will buy it anyway. And here is the irony, if PMDG does not offer a 30 day money back guarantee, to me anyway, it says that they don't have faith enough in their product that people will puchase it when compared to the iFLY. So maybe PMDG should put their money where their mouth is (in the nicest possible way) :(

[Gazzareth 808]

BUT if PMDG does offer a money back guarantee IMO it says that 1) virtually everyone who owns the iFLY will purchase it based on this understanding and 2) it also says that PMDG are so confident that it is superior to the iFLY that people will buy it anyway. And here is So maybe PMDG should put their money where their mouth is (in the nicest possible way) :(

Got to agree with you there, I would love the PMDG from what I have seen, but when I finally get the chance to spend some FS time I will be getting the iFly. I have far, far too many add-ons that I have hardly flown..... At least iFly have the confidence to give the 30 day option...G

[Benjamin J 751]

My point is this. Everyone who has been in flight simming for any length of time is very well aware of PMDG's reputation for creating state of the art payware aircraft. I own almost all of them myself. I guess I just expected better of people who are as respected as you guys are. If iFly isn't a threat, and they haven't done anything to provoke you,why mention them at all? The folks at iFly don't do it and don't allow it on their forums. Why would you?

I can only wholeheartedly agree with this. However, I don't let this kind of stuff influence my purchase to much. I'm one of the guys, who buys a company's product based on the quality of the product, and doesn't get to freaked out by the opinion I or others might have of the company that made it. If I see that the product is good and that I get help when I have a problem, I will buy subsequent products if they meet the same standards. In other words, I will buy their NGX based on the enormous fun I have had with the 747 (never quite like the MD-11 though) and based on the fact that I do get answers when I need them. If I were to bring my opinion of PMDG as a business into the equation, then the chances of me buying the NGX would be a lot slimmer. Here's why:I have had several dealings with developers as an Avsim reviewer. I tend to get back to the developer to ask questions if the products have some possible bugs, or in general just to give feedback before I send in the review to the editor. This means that when a product is especially good I also say this, followed by a series of questions, just to satisfy my own curiosity and because I think the reader might like to read it. The way a developer reacts to this is very telling. When I talked to John, the developer of the VRS Superbug, at the time still a "newbie" on the FS market, I could deduce from his messages how proud he was of the product and how thankful he was for my interest and the time I had taken to review the product. When I mailed with the guy at Coolsky, I got the same reactions, even though he by no means "new" to the scene. When I talked to PMDG following the J41 review, I was almost surprised about the lack of happiness in the mails. Sure they would have been happy with me liking the J41, but I always had the feeling from these emails that they were basically expecting the praise and were used to that. From that point on, I have never looked at PMDG quite in the same way. It saddens me, to be honest. In my opinion it doesn't matter how good the product is, a truly great developer stays humble to at least some degree.The way PMDG conveys their self-praise is also not doing them good for as far as I can see. Maybe I'm being extremely sensitive to this (In Holland people tend to be very sensitive to the arrogance level of people around them, even if the Dutch can be extremely arrogant also), but for me there is a huge difference between "the product is great" and "we think you will really like the product". See, to me the last one conveys a sense of proudness about their product. They simply are proud about their work and they hope we will like it as much as we do. However, the moment you say "it will rock the FS world", I shoot into my cynical mode and think "yeah well, we'll see that when you release it, eh?". It's this last thing what I have been thinking continually while reading PMDG posts. Of course it was mixed with excitement and pleasure, because I do like their posts. I only wish that they would be less blatant about how good their products are. And this is exactly what John of VRS didn't do: as I said previously, in all my personal dealings with him concerning the reviews, he was always very humble. Of course I have't really spoken to him for some time now so I wouldn't know if he changed, Last time I talked to him, however, I could still deduce from his message how thankful he still was for that review. PMDG just didn't do that. Please do understand I do not intend to come off as some spoiled kid who wants to hear "thanks" for whatever he does, but at least some recognition and a hand shake would be nice to get if you have just slapped the "Avsim's Number 1 prize for an excellent product" stamp onto a product!All that said, I will buy the PMDG 737NGX, because I love the VC and configurability of everything, plus it most probably will be a great product. The systems will probably be top notch, and the plane will do what you tell it to do with the precision we are all hoping for. Also, I combat the notion that you have to be some kind of FS freak who wants to see all buttons working. For all I know, the PMDG NGX can be flown just as well as any aircraft if you have the required level of experience. I have been flying the Maddog for ages and never touched the circuit breakers and more advanced stuff that's in there, yet I'm fine flying it. I imagine the same will be applicable to the PMDG NGX.

[CoolP 283]

Very good and interesting reads there. Especially Benjamin's one with another but totally reasonable viewpoint.That interview part on the J41 review was a very good idea in my eyes and served the reader and the company. And it's sad that you don't do more aircraft reviews, I'd like to add.

[Rocky_53 1,581]

I can only wholeheartedly agree with this. However, I don't let this kind of stuff influence my purchase to much. I'm one of the guys, who buys a company's product based on the quality of the product, and doesn't get to freaked out by the opinion I or others might have of the company that made it. If I see that the product is good and that I get help when I have a problem, I will buy subsequent products if they meet the same standards. In other words, I will buy their NGX based on the enormous fun I have had with the 747 (never quite like the MD-11 though) and based on the fact that I do get answers when I need them. If I were to bring my opinion of PMDG as a business into the equation, then the chances of me buying the NGX would be a lot slimmer. Here's why:

I bought the iFLY the moment it was released. It is my first 'proper' tube and I am spending most days getting to grips with it. I would just like to say that I have been absolutely amazed at the help and support from Steve Masson and his team. He is a true gentleman. After sales support is paramount to me and to have this degree of support from a developer is extremely important in purchasing any product. I think too many of us often get drawn into buying a product and forget what we are purchsing. It is just not just 'a product' we are purchsing, it is the challenge, and above all, the enjoyment that we get from the product. So, if there is very little, or poor, support where does the enjoyment come from. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that when we buy into something, we are buying into the whole thing, the product, the support, the forums, it's everything. So support is a very big part of a product and to disregard this can sometimes end up with the enjoyment factor vanishing, and that is the very thing we are chasing. :(

[Tierborn 188]

Guys this is all ridiculous. This is what happens (thanks to the internet and technology) when you removesthe social aspect of a community. A "hatred" comes out in everyone because we are all behind computers. You can pick any guy that you seem to have a problem with on here and I bet if you went out and had a drink with them you would probably get along with them fantastic. I have seen this a gazillion times. Currently I work for airline A. We might take some jabs at airline B and thy take jabs t us but when I bump into them in the hotel lobby or terminal, 99 times out of 100 I get along with them great. We respect each other and what we do. When you see ech other in person that "barrier" breaks. And its the exact same thing here. I bet If you, Jay or CoolP, bumped into any of the guys at PMDG and went out and had a bite to eat with them you would think they are great guys. And they are. Everyone has to keep in mind that being behind these computers will drastically change how you interact with one another. Not only that the context of a statement is so easily misunderstood when texting. Most of the time you cant tell when people are saying something sarcastic and joking around. Just try to give some people the benefit of the doubt. You may think PMDG is arrogant but they aren't if you knew them better. And if they are its probably because some of them are pilots and its a pilots nature to be arrogant! Lol. Just kidding. I havent chatted with Steve at iFly but he seems like a very nice guy that seems to have respect for people on there. I know guys like Ryan who have spent hours helping out individuals with issues. Sounds pretty darn helpful to me. Just dont rule out a company because they "seem" arrogant. Seem is a bad word. What it is associated with is often misunderstood. We are all here to enjoy this hobby and its just crazy that person A gets angry at person B because he likes Ford and not Chevy.........especially when they are both crazy cause Honda is better than both. Hehe. Take care guys!

One huge issue in your discourse .. PMDG is a business, and as such, it has to put aside all "personal" frustrations when interacting with its customers. Can you imagine AT&T responding to a customer who asked about the timing on the new "soon to be released" features .. saying, that they will be done when they are done, stop asking until we tell you more. Or, AT&T taking jabs at Comcast in its email interaction with its customers. When you decide to have a business, you have to rise above all personal emotion.Most people buy from a company based on its products and customer service. Many companies have had equal or better products, but, had poor customer service ... and many of these companies didn't survive.

[Epikk 63]

Comparing PMDG and AT&T. Seriously?

[GHarrall 494]

Dont be fooled by all the butt kissing on the Orbx site, the Orbx guys have an ego as big or bigger than PMDG does, which is clear when they talk about competitors products as being "dumbed down". I wouldn't go as far as saying stuff by FlyTampa or FSDreamteam is "dumbed down".

I love the Orbx stuff and generally I find everyone most helpful on there. Every now and again there are posts by a certain member of staff that rubs me the wrong way in terms of attitude and if things aren't going there way then its the "It's my ball and I'm taking it home" approach. This can come across as very arrogant and self hyped. However it may be just my reaction.90% of the time though...no issue over there.

[Rocky_53 1,581]

I love the Orbx stuff and generally I find everyone most helpful on there. Every now and again there are posts by a certain member of staff that rubs me the wrong way in terms of attitude and if things aren't going there way then its the "It's my ball and I'm taking it home" approach. This can come across as very arrogant and self hyped. However it may be just my reaction.90% of the time though...no issue over there.

:(

[Tierborn 188]

Comparing PMDG and AT&T. Seriously?

Yes .. a business is a business, size shouldn't matter regarding customer service and customer interaction, seriously!

[mikea76 184]

Arrogant is not a sign of beign good, it's a sign of being arrogant.Last I knew they are still looking into the FPS problem, but for most, it's not an issue, and since it only affects the VC, there are workarounds until a fix is found.If you think the PMDG will launch trouble free, I got a bridge I'd like to talk to you about :(

Do you honestly think the Ifly NG is going to be a more complete simulation then the PMDG one? earlier I meantioned the night lighting difference, how about the difference in the HUGS? Terrain radar is modeled in the NGX. I am not saying the PMDG plane will not have issues as I am sure it will but I don't think it will be as rushed as the ifly plane was. I am not sure I believe that it is not a issue for most people... I have tried it on my backup computer too ( C2D E7500 OC'ed to 3.4 4 gigs ddr3 ram, GT9800) and it was BAD on that system, while my SB system can afford to loose 10-15 frames the C2D setup can't it turned into a slideshow with the mouse on screen I know some of you guys don't like the attitude that some pmdg team members have taken or are ###### at them about how long it took and the missed so called target dates. but I think your going to be very disappointed if you expect the ifly plane to be a better simulation of a 737

One huge issue in your discourse .. PMDG is a business, and as such, it has to put aside all "personal" frustrations when interacting with its customers. Can you imagine AT&T responding to a customer who asked about the timing on the new "soon to be released" features .. saying, that they will be done when they are done, stop asking until we tell you more. Or, AT&T taking jabs at Comcast in its email interaction with its customers. When you decide to have a business, you have to rise above all personal emotion.Most people buy from a company based on its products and customer service. Many companies have had equal or better products, but, had poor customer service ... and many of these companies didn't survive.

Back a few years ago verizon wired my town for FIOS. for 6 months there was a empty box at the end of my street with a fiber cable cut short of it, I called Verizon and asked them how long until they come back and wire the rest of the street. I was told guess what????We will update you when we have more info.. They never updated me, missed many deadlinesthey also told us it would be done when it was done. 2 years later it was done and guess what... it kicks &@($*. Sounds kind of familiar, too bad we did not have IFIOS that could have wired the town in a rushed manner with lines zip tied to poles and loosing half my speed when I move the mouse on my computerBTW verizon and att pound on each other on TV ad's Like the verizon ad a few years ago with the Iphone on the island of misfit toys because it was on ATT and had lame 3g coverage.. thats a pretty big jab.Or how about the comcast Ad's with the turtle's on DSL and how they like slow.. hmm I guess that is not a jab at DSL service at all

In my opinion, iFly vs PMDG is not a fair debate until the PMDG NGX is released. Beyond that, I believe that more the merrier because it promotes competition and benefits the consumer. Assuming that the PMDG NGX is priced around $80-$90, it gives us the consumers the option to pay for the level of complexity and fidelity that we desire or prefer. The iFly, especially if the mouse lag, cockpit lighting, and VNAV issues are eliminated or improved, is a damn good product at its price point. The PMDG will be for the customer who wants greater system depth, accuracy, and higher quality cockpit textures, and is willing to pay the higher purchase price.

very good post.

[Benjamin J 751]

I bought the iFLY the moment it was released. It is my first 'proper' tube and I am spending most days getting to grips with it. I would just like to say that I have been absolutely amazed at the help and support from Steve Masson and his team. He is a true gentleman. After sales support is paramount to me and to have this degree of support from a developer is extremely important in purchasing any product. I think too many of us often get drawn into buying a product and forget what we are purchsing. It is just not just 'a product' we are purchsing, it is the challenge, and above all, the enjoyment that we get from the product. So, if there is very little, or poor, support where does the enjoyment come from. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that when we buy into something, we are buying into the whole thing, the product, the support, the forums, it's everything. So support is a very big part of a product and to disregard this can sometimes end up with the enjoyment factor vanishing, and that is the very thing we are chasing. :(

But of course, and let me add to that: I have found service and support at the iFly forum to be pretty much the best I have seen in the FS world. The atmosphere is pleasant and most people get the help they need, and they tend to get it quickly. And again: the atmosphere is pleasant. I get the feeling I am helped by somebody who doesn't just has to take care of customer's problems, but somebody who actually likes doing that.

[Epikk 63]

Yes .. a business is a business, size shouldn't matter regarding customer service and customer interaction, seriously!

Ok.

[PIC007 82]

Benjamin, Thanks for your posts, they saved me a lot of writing!Mike,You still miss my point. This isnt about 'my 737 is bigger (better) than your 737, it's about attitude and service, for me anyway. Unless someone is 737 qualified in real life, you will be hard pressed to tell whats accurate and what isn't in either plane, so that argument is moot. They both are top shelf products. My point is, I have so many planes now, including PMDG, that I can afford to be picky, and my #1 priority now is attitude, and I don't mean the planes. I will spend more money on 'less' of a plane rather than less momey on 'more' of a plane because my money goes to those who actually appreciate me as a customer. PMDG's consistant attitude of bashing other devs, as well as deriding anyone who doesnt bow and scrape at their percieved magnificence, has ruined any chance of them ever getting one more dime out of me, and obviously I am not alone on this.We all vote with our wallets in this hobby, and most devs 'get it'.

[mikea76 184]

Yeah, you too.I wonder if you've read any of my posts in whole, at least they make use of some paragraphs to allow this more easily.

The reason PMDG took the banners away from the tech team is because the tech team guys are real life pilots and other people involved in real life 737 operations, they are not direct employees of PMDG and I imagine they do not want comments by Jack or other tech team advisers to be taken as official opinion or statements of their company Now onto this portion of your post I quoted.. I think this is a low blow by somebody who can not win a argument so they resort to grammar or sentence structure.Jack is a real 737 pilot and I would like to see him stay around these boards, it would be cool to be able to ask him or other real life type rated pilots questions, no offense but your useless too me as I am useless too you. So please don't run useful helpful people off the forum. BTW feel free to pick apart my grammar, sentence structure and whatever else you want.

Benjamin, Thanks for your posts, they saved me a lot of writing!Mike,You still miss my point. This isnt about 'my 737 is bigger (better) than your 737, it's about attitude and service, for me anyway. Unless someone is 737 qualified in real life, you will be hard pressed to tell whats accurate and what isn't in either plane, so that argument is moot. They both are top shelf products. My point is, I have so many planes now, including PMDG, that I can afford to be picky, and my #1 priority now is attitude, and I don't mean the planes. I will spend more money on 'less' of a plane rather than less momey on 'more' of a plane because my money goes to those who actually appreciate me as a customer. PMDG's consistant attitude of bashing other devs, as well as deriding anyone who doesnt bow and scrape at their percieved magnificence, has ruined any chance of them ever getting one more dime out of me, and obviously I am not alone on this.We all vote with our wallets in this hobby, and most devs 'get it'.

I bet you will buy it. You will see how awesome it is and then you will cave :) I know the Ifly guys are nice but are you really going to be happy knowing you could be flying the NGX?At some point features, performance and functionality matters and I think the PMDG plane is going to be groundbreaking. Maybe I am wrong but it appears to be on another level and even if I was offended by the PMDG team for some reason I would still buy it. It's kind of a shame that the Ifly plane is also a 737 NG because it is a good product, if it was a 757 it would be the best on the market, I think Steve and the rest of the guys from Ifly are nice guys and they have a decent product, but they are going to have a big shadow over them when the NGX comes out. STEVE FROM IFLY if you read this, please make a 757. I have zero confidence in the level-d one ever coming out. LOL people want to trash PMDG for taking awhile and lack of update and broken promises, what about the level-d 757 and radar contact 5. Are those considered vaporware yet?LOL check out what I wrote about the run around verizon gave me on FIOS, my holdout because of their smug attitude lasted 2 weeks and we are not talking about a one time 50-80 bucks. I give verizon about 300 a month between cell and home servicesBTW I want to see how great the customer service is over at IFLY after a few years of them having to answer the same stupid question over and over, will steve turn into darryl from level-d