IFLY 737 Rudder problems

[MarkRey 16]

Mark, I understand your points, and personally I also prefer as much info as possible before ANY purchase decision. Where everyday commerce is concerned they don't come more (reasonably) hard nosed than me in holding producers and retailers accountable. But - in the spirit of not taking this fun hobby too seriously, I think a bit of context is required. We're talking about a niche market within a niche market developer who: 1) released/supported a complex 747 free of cost, engendering much goodwill in the process 2) Released an even better 737 making sure you can get your money back and 3) gives you more 737 stuff free just in appreciation. All of this is public, non-locked down knowledge. I'll go even further and say this - once an fs dev group proves to me they DO care about their customers, I will proudly step up and help defend their revenue in this 'anything goes' online generation, and don't care one diddly who calls me 'cop' Besides, beyond official affirmations (which MAY not even affect my setup) the typical support forum is FULL of subjective user info anyway and can be very misleading. Every time I've ultimately bought a product and seen 'both sides of the veil', the support forum would have been of little additional value (imho). If something is crap - EVERYbody 'outside' knows eventually.

[Dillon 2,197]

Mark you come off as someone who's pushing a point when all common since should suggest otherwise. Our community if fighting to stay alive. I was reading in the Flight forum here at Avsim where 'Flight' itself could be put on hold while Microsoft judges it's profitability. We have lost too many developers to pirating and it's to our best interest to push back. The only since I can make out of all your rambling here is your a part time pirate yourself and would want support from time to time on things you yourself didn't get legitimately. Who knows if that's the case and I'm not accusing you of anything but your push back makes no since otherwise. If you want to know if a product is good we'll tell you, if you want to know if it's compatible with your system read the specs on the vendor's website, if you want to try before you buy there's a 30 day option, if you want support you go to the vendor's website as a legitimate customer. We all need to keep tabs on pirates because otherwise they'll kill our hobby (they and FSX's slow hardware compatibility climb since release has done enough damage already over the last few years). Anyone who's been around or has the least bit of common since understands this...

[Swoop 0]

Hey Dillion, I don't know what you've read in what I've written but here's the point...***Purchasing Flight Simulator anything (or buying the farm)... Don't believe everything that you read. Take the time to research what you're going to buy and if you can, abstain from buying on an impulse.If someone tells you that a piece of software is perfect for FS9, remember that statement is subjective and your system may have a completely different experience from what you've been told.Don't listen to those who attempt to dissuade you from practicing time tested consumer protection guidelines. Anyone who tells you to ignore those guidelines is not acting in your best interest.If a developer will not let you read about product issues in advance, then you are being kept in the dark. Do not succumb to pressure that excuses that type of behavior, especially contentious excuses such as theft. That is the developer making his business problems your fault.***Now, is there anything in there that says steal something...I don't think so. What I think is that the anit-piracy card is still being force fed to people that may just be a bit fed up with it. It's getting to the point that some people in this group have stopped helping others as evidenced by the way the original poster has been treated.Frankly Dillion, you would be doing the community and our hobby a disservice by advising people not to research a purchase before they buy something or by enabling kids to to be treated so poorly just because they are reaching out for our help...and just because you can? Yuck...That's not my style and I don't want any part of being like that...Mark

[Kaly 22]

Im with you swoop!!!!

[Dillon 2,197]

Hey Dillion, I don't know what you've read in what I've written but here's the point... ***Purchasing Flight Simulator anything (or buying the farm)... Don't believe everything that you read. Take the time to research what you're going to buy and if you can, abstain from buying on an impulse. If someone tells you that a piece of software is perfect for FS9, remember that statement is subjective and your system may have a completely different experience from what you've been told. Don't listen to those who attempt to dissuade you from practicing time tested consumer protection guidelines. Anyone who tells you to ignore those guidelines is not acting in your best interest. If a developer will not let you read about product issues in advance, then you are being kept in the dark. Do not succumb to pressure that excuses that type of behavior, especially contentious excuses such as theft. That is the developer making his business problems your fault. ***Now, is there anything in there that says steal something...I don't think so. What I think is that the anit-piracy card is still being force fed to people that may just be a bit fed up with it. It's getting to the point that some people in this group have stopped helping others as evidenced by the way the original poster has been treated. Frankly Dillion, you would be doing the community and our hobby a disservice by advising people not to research a purchase before they buy something or by enabling kids to to be treated so poorly just because they are reaching out for our help...and just because you can? Yuck...That's not my style and I don't want any part of being like that... Mark

For someone with 1,000 post you act as if you just came around here yesterday. I've been around the FS community for almost 20 years and have worked with many developers. It's insulting for anyone to come in here and remotely suggest developers are pulling the 'anit-piracy card'. I guess you don't remember 'Dreamfleet', 'PSS', 'OSS', and 'Simflyers' to name a few. You must have never been on the business side of FS to understand how damaging sites like 'Pirates Bay' have been. I do believe something else is going on here because you mention kids and we all know kids can steal just like adults even more so because they don't have the access or income an adult would for their hobby. The FS community has been one of the most giving places on the web since it's inception. The very nature of how this hobby started has been based on people giving freely of there time. Just like everything else in life bad apples make it bad for everyone else. Surely you understand this. I could see if you were making a point about freeware but to suggest people devulge information and support about products that cost money and research to build is nuts. I couldn't fully support iFly's birds if I wanted to because I didn't design them myself. Any questions would be best directed to iFly, what's wrong with that? If your that scared of things possibly braking your PC then first off why are you still on WIndows XP 32bit? With that alone your argument is rendered moot. Viruses are on a whole other level for XP these days versus OS's like Windows 7, Snow Leopard, and Linux. Swoop your position here doesn't make since. Of all things that could be a problem with your PC or cause you problems, professional FS add-ons is the least of your worries. If you can't take the word of 100's of FS user and reviewers across the web a product is good then that's a personal problem. NO we're not going to give up support info to potential pirates and YES your welcome to disagree for whatever reason. No matter what one purchases in life it's always best to go to the one who built it for support versus a general user anyway, that's life. For work on a FORD car I take my car to a FORD dealer or licensed vendor, I read Consumer Reports before I buy etc. Would you ask a pilot to give you support on a Boeing aircraft just because he flies the aircraft or would you get Boeing in to fix whatever issue is at fault? Knowing you you would get upset with the passengers because they couldn't give you support on fixing that faulty APU system that keeps smoking up the cabin. You may go to Airbus for support because you think it's only fare the competition should work on a Boeing aircraft. The argument your raising is so far out in left field especially with what this community is going through and/or has experienced in the last few years I wonder why I'm even wasting my time with it...

Im with you swoop!!!!

Yea I'm with you Swoop...

[Swoop 0]

Sure Dillion...it's just that I don't recommend buying something before you can adequately research it. It seems obvious to me that if the information is not available for research and people actively prevent the free flow of information, then where does someone go to find out if it's a good buy?Just like I said before, you would be doing the community and our hobby a disservice by advising people not to research a product before they buy it or by enabling kids to to be treated so poorly just because they are reaching out for our help...and just because you can?Yuck...That's not my style and I don't want any part of being like that...Mark(Post #5 of this thread by me)...You know, I kind of like the idea that people post information about issues that they're having with products here. Especially if the general public can't read the developer's forum unless they are registered or even worse, are required to own the product.JP couldn't even put a direct link to the topic as that form is for registered users of the iFly bird. I often wonder why that is...

[Glynn 405]

(Post #5 of this thread by me)...You know, I kind of like the idea that people post information about issues that they're having with products here. Especially if the general public can't read the developer's forum unless they are registered or even worse, are required to own the product. JP couldn't even put a direct link to the topic as that form is for registered users of the iFly bird. I often wonder why that is...

HelloIt seems that from your point of view that the two biggest sins a developer can commit is that he requires that you buy his product and that he will not waste time supporting those who do not support him. Why are you having such a hard time coming to terms with the fact that purchasing a product also buys you support for that purchase. The i-fly support system is a poor one to select in your pro-piracy crusade here as it is probably the gold standard as far as friendly support is concerned.They have a general forum where you can ask questions and talk to owners of the product, if you then choose to try the product they even give you 30 days to make sure it is exactly to your satisfaction (with registered forum access) during this time. These few words from post#5 sum up for me where you stand on the subject of piracy: "even worse, are required to own the product." Says it all in seven words for me.

[Dillon 2,197]

"even worse, are required to own the product." Says it all in seven words for me.

Ehh, eight words actually...

[Swoop 0]

OK, you guys...you're beginning to come to your senses. Opinions like that (while I might not agree) sound more reasonable. Now, if we can stop having the knee jerk reaction of forcing our opinions on people and attempt to convince them through a more reasonable pathology, you immediately gain a couple of things.The first thing that you gain is people are not afraid to come to you for advice. If people are not afraid it also enables Avsim to continue to be a leader for number two. So instead of people shying away from us, they say Avsim is the place to go to get sound advice and help.I mean, that's the goal, isn't it?Mark

[ubersu 78]

OK, you guys...you're beginning to come to your senses. Opinions like that (while I might not agree) sound more reasonable. Now, if we can stop having the knee jerk reaction of forcing our opinions on people and attempt to convince them through a more reasonable pathology, you immediately gain a couple of things. The first thing that you gain is people are not afraid to come to you for advice. If people are not afraid it also enables Avsim to continue to be a leader for number two. So instead of people shying away from us, they say Avsim is the place to go to get sound advice and help. I mean, that's the goal, isn't it? Mark

No, actually the goal is to help people solve their FS problems by giving them the best information possible. In the case of the OP the best information was a link to the developers forum. The rest of this thread has been noise - the OP got his problem solved. The simple truth is that the signal to noise ratio in general FS forums has gotten to the point where any real information is barely discernible if present at all. It wasn't always that way but the reality of the internet has intruded here just as it has in any other area, and much of what is written in these forums is gibberish. As a consequence, most major developers have gone to a closed forum or ticket support system where people who actually have the product can get competent technical help from folks who actually know what they're doing - some, of course, do it more pleasantly and competently than others. Piracy or it's suppression is not the main point, although a side effect of these systems has been to make it more difficult for those with stolen products to get decent support. However, I also feel that a number of folks on this and other forums are far too eager to use the P word without a lot of justification and frequently without moderator intervention - that's unfortunate. My own position is simple - if I am technically able to tell you what you need to know, and the developer of the product in question has not asked that all problems be channeled through them, I'll tell you, Otherwise I'll stay out of it or direct you to the best source for the information you need. DJ

[flyinpilot212121 724]

Rafal, I don't think it's out of bounds to complain here at all. No one helped the original poster. Weather there exists support in another location or not, what business is it of yours or mine? If a few people here want to hack up legitimate requests for help then that is a shame. By enabling officious behavior like that, we loose a third party who can mediate between marketing fluff, politically motivated responses, and the actual product performance. I think we're suppose to be the third party here, not the cyber police. ...and I did notice that the original poster had a low number of posts. That's exactly why I wanted him helped. Years ago, you and I had a low number of posts as well. How would you feel if you didn't get help when you reached out for it back then?Mark

The problem is the OP did get help, he was directed to the registered users forum where this question was already brought up, how mich more help do you want???If i were new around here, asked the exact same question and was directed to the users forums, i definetly wouldnt feel pushed away, i would more then likey just click the link, register and find my answer or reask it there, no harm no foul!!!!

[JP_Visser 3]

...and I did notice that the original poster had a low number of posts. That's exactly why I wanted him helped. Years ago, you and I had a low number of posts as well. How would you feel if you didn't get help when you reached out for it back then? Mark

When I had a low number of posts I posted for support as well.As I did not always get the answer I needed, I went to search for answers myself. It is that which enables me to help other folks today.And yes, I do that at a protected forum, I bought that plane,so should someone who wants my knowledge for support.You can whine and moan all you want but really, this horse has long since died. Having said that, I do enjoy supporting others, but a lot of the enjoyment comes from thefact that people in that forum are somewhat known and they know us.That feels good.The kind of stories you tell feel bad.By your reasoning we should all trawl 25 simsites to offer support to those that need it.If that were the case, I would fly the darned plane and think "Mark'll take care of it". cheers JP.

[Swoop 0]

Good for you JP...My reasoning is this and it's really easy to understand. Information which could be used to make a product purchase is being sequestered by the manufacturer. You cannot get to that information before you buy the product, only after you buy the product. A number of people in this forum have decided it's OK for the developer to do that. I don't mind if that's your position as well but it's not mine. I think its an extremely anti-consumer business model which is being enabled by good folks such as yourself.The funny thing about trolling forums is that you did manage to troll this one...so you were here, you posted and yet you did not answer the question? By your reasoning that means that you just doubled your workload. Maybe you should try to work a bit smarter and at the same time, give others the opportunity to both read and praise your knowledgeable responses.It also servers a couple of valuable purposes as well. One, everyone gets the flight sim community spirit and two, people like me don't feel that you are acting in a duplicitous manner :)Mark

[MarkRey 16]

Given your stance, why did you buy the iFly 737?

[Swoop 0]

Hey Mark, I love the bird. It's gotta be one of the best FS9 birds every created and I mean that! I just think that this forum is filled with a bunch of bullies that keep on bullying people. They play every card they can, geeze, Dillion called me a thief and then rescinded it all in the same paragraph.For me, I would recommend a purchase of the iFly bird but I keep running into the curmudgeons that have nothing but frustration and an agenda. When you give the mob both of those factors you cannot get a word in edgewise lest you become the target of both :)Mark