We keep hovering around issues here to validate everyone's point so here's mine again. ... My original complaint was (and still is) that information that should help me determine a product purchase is being sequestered by the manufacturer of the product. I actually have to buy the product and see if it works, risking my system and FS9 install. What's changed...nothing. I think it's extremely anti-consumer and many here Avsim have been drafted into behaving as if is a reasonable business practice. Personally, I don't think we're doing the consumer, the end user, and especially ourselves any good. If you think that prices will go down because you act on behalf of a company in proxy, guess again. You've simply taught the manufacturer that it can get away with anything it wants to. Mark

if you want to know how a product is before you buy it then you can just have a look at the reviews...most major releases have a review of one form or another here at Avsim (DA's Fokker 100 for example had two at that - one pre-sp1 and the other post-sp1 IIRC)...also you can get a general gist of iFly's 737 in their general forums at any rate, its the support & development sections is what they protect. all the others here was saying was if you own it legitimately there's not reason not to register, their support's pretty much the best there is. it may be an extra few mouse clicks but they have to protect themselves somehow, and from what i've been seeing/reading here and in other forums, i don't necessarily think its affecting business negatively in any form or fashion for iFly or others who do the same either. i don't get any impression anyone's acting in proxy for any companies here either.... remember there's a 30-day period in which you can get a full refund with iFly's 737 if you try it and don't like it as well - pretty fair if you ask me. --xavier [sorry - keep spotting grammar errors lol]

Edited September 5, 201114 yr by Pict

We keep hovering around issues here to validate everyone's point so here's mine again. ... My original complaint was (and still is) that information that should help me determine a product purchase is being sequestered by the manufacturer of the product. I actually have to buy the product and see if it works, risking my system and FS9 install. What's changed...nothing. I think it's extremely anti-consumer and many here Avsim have been drafted into behaving as if is a reasonable business practice. Personally, I don't think we're doing the consumer, the end user, and especially ourselves any good. If you think that prices will go down because you act on behalf of a company in proxy, guess again. You've simply taught the manufacturer that it can get away with anything it wants to. Mark

lol, still going on about "sequestered?" if somone is interested in a particular product, ask here. you'll get multitudes of opinions and you'll be able to judge what legitimate users are saying. if you have a 'technical' issue and haven't used the developer's forum, you're wasting time or in all likelihood using a pirated copy. i pay for my sw. i help keep the fs echosystem thing going. pirates screw up this ecosystem. condoning or engaging in piracy is anti-consumer.

So let me see if I understand this now. I am being prevented from seeing problems with a piece of software before I buy it, right? Both the manufacturer and some of the people here are both accomplishing the information control in concert with the idea of preventing software piracy, correct or not?Now, does anyone believe that seeing the issues raised in a support form will help determine if you want to buy a product or not?Mark

So let me see if I understand this now. I am being prevented from seeing problems with a piece of software before I buy it, right? Both the manufacturer and some of the people here are both accomplishing the information control in concert with the idea of preventing software piracy, correct or not? Now, does anyone believe that seeing the issues raised in a support form will help determine if you want to buy a product or not? Mark

HelloMark what is it about the 30 day money back guarantee that you don't get.Also if you do a search here for i-Fly what is the overall impression you get, then do a search for Wilco Airbus or Ariane.See how this works?. Your position is not defensible, piracy is wrong, Avsim becoming a reference library for folk who get their addons through torrent sites would also be wrong.

So let me see if I understand this now. I am being prevented from seeing problems with a piece of software before I buy it, right? Both the manufacturer and some of the people here are both accomplishing the information control in concert with the idea of preventing software piracy, correct or not?Now, does anyone believe that seeing the issues raised in a support form will help determine if you want to buy a product or not? I'd just like to add that it costs me money for every bank transaction that I make over the internet. Now some of you don't seem to care that I might loose money if I don't like the product, right?Mark

So let me see if I understand this now. I am being prevented from seeing problems with a piece of software before I buy it, right? Both the manufacturer and some of the people here are both accomplishing the information control in concert with the idea of preventing software piracy, correct or not? Now, does anyone believe that seeing the issues raised in a support form will help determine if you want to buy a product or not? Mark

So let me see if I understand this now. I am being prevented from seeing problems with a piece of software before I buy it, right? Both the manufacturer and some of the people here are both accomplishing the information control in concert with the idea of preventing software piracy, correct or not? Now, does anyone believe that seeing the issues raised in a support form will help determine if you want to buy a product or not? I'd just like to add that it costs me money for every bank transaction that I make over the internet. Now some of you don't seem to care that I might loose money if I don't like the product, right? Mark

Mark i'd suggest you read all of our posts a second time as you seem to be missing the point completely: as kdfw_ and mad dog said, just do a search here on avsim's forums or even ifly's general forums and you'll get plenty of information, plus many technical issues often turn out to be computer specific at any rate (if someone reports a problem, it could be from their specific hardware setup and not the software itself) - so its still not wise to conclude whether a product is good or not based on that. even do a search here (set your filter to display locked threads to make it simpler) and you'll see the sheer number of times people who get add-ons illegally trying to get tech-support here on avsim and never post in the addon's own support sections. --xavier

Hey Xavier, I'm don't believe that I'm missing anything here. My original complaint was (and still is) that information that should help me determine a product purchase is being sequestered by the manufacturer of the product. I actually have to buy the product and see if it works, risking my system and FS9 install.Please tell me what part of my original statement is not true???I don't think that anyone on this board has presented a reasonable argument why I should accept anti-consumer behavior. That's my opinion and I think it is both well grounded and correct. The truth is that I want to know what's happening with one of the most expensive and complicated FS9 aircraft ever created before I buy it, not afterwards.Also, I am not interested in being part of a anti-piracy mob mentality. That has absolutely nothing to do with me and it's being used to justify anti-consumer behavior. To me that is a real problem here. What I mean to say is, would you want to take advice from someone who tells you not to worry about researching a product, just buy it? Who in your circle of friends do you trust that much to allow them that amount of control?Mark

So Mark, what kind of information are you requesting? The OP had an issue with operating the aircraft or a minor glitch with the rudder that should be resolved on the official tech forum. Nothing to do with the software being compatible with his system or the software pottentially damaging his machine. Fair enough if you want to know if the software is 64 bit compatible, does it overwrite your fsuipc settings, any modules that may cause conflicts with existing add-ons etc etc. Anything else regarding technical issues should be dealt with on the private tech support forum, IFLY and other developers have every right to request that. If you are not happy with that (and you are in the minority) you can find plenty of freeware out there to install on your system.

Rob, that's the irony of this whole thread...I'm not requesting any technical information. If I needed to find out anything now, I'd simply login to the iFly site since I own a license for the product (and it's a pretty good one indeed).What I'd like to see is the bullies in this forum learn to have a heart and help people that need help. There was no evidence whatsoever that the original poster was a pirate and yet it was decided to blindly act as if he was. No one even bothered to find out...I think that sucks and it happens far to often here.Mark

What I'd like to see is the bullies in this forum learn to have a heart and help people that need help

You are being unfair, Mark. If you do a search, you will see all of us, bullies, helping others hundreds of times here in the forum (not to mention other forums we usually belong to).We have spent countless hours of our spare time to assist people with solving problems, giving them advice on the choice of software, suggesting some recommendations, etc.Now there comes a fishy case of a one-post simmer who ('testing with a friend') needs 'help' to use a (popularly pirated) payware product. So we (in good will I am sure) give him the best possible piece of advice - going to the best support forum ever where he will be assisted immediately for 100% and everything possible will be done to help him with his problem. But looks like he doesn't care to do it (many wonder why). And suddenly you become his vocal advocate making him poor sheep and us bad wolves. Why? Mark, I have nothing against you. It is great to have you here. You have posted hundreds of times giving enough contribution to this hobby.I just don't get it this time. I am unable to understand what exactly you are trying to prove here...

You are being unfair, Mark. If you do a search, you will see all of us, bullies, helping others hundreds of times here in the forum (not to mention other forums we usually belong to).We have spent countless hours of our spare time to assist people with solving problems, giving them advice on the choice of software, suggesting some recommendations, etc.Now there comes a fishy case of a one-post simmer who ('testing with a friend') needs 'help' to use a (popularly pirated) payware product. So we (in good will I am sure) give him the best possible piece of advice - going to the best support forum ever where he will be assisted immediately for 100% and everything possible will be done to help him with his problem. But looks like he doesn't care to do it (many wonder why). And suddenly you become his vocal advocate making him poor sheep and us bad wolves. Why? Mark, I have nothing against you. It is great to have you here. You have posted hundreds of times giving enough contribution to this hobby.I just don't get it this time. I am unable to understand what exactly you are trying to prove here...

Just as a side note, the OP (eyes probably bugging out from all this discussion) dutifully trotted off to the iFly forum, registered, and got his problem addressed. DJ

What I'd like to see is the bullies in this forum learn to have a heart and help people that need help. There was no evidence whatsoever that the original poster was a pirate and yet it was decided to blindly act as if he was. No one even bothered to find out...I think that sucks and it happens far to often here. Mark

What part of "please go hére to get help" is bullying, exactly ?The first answering post sent him to the iFly forum,the second one gave him a link.He has since registered and posted and is dutifully assisted soI really don't get your obsession about not being able to see issues when not registered. 8 out of ten fora uses that format, even at our very own Avsim if you are not registeredcertain parts of this here forum will not be shown. I myself will continue to steer people to the place they can get help from peoplethat know the product inside out and that is the iFly forum.Simples. cheers JP.

the OP (eyes probably bugging out from all this discussion) dutifully trotted off to the iFly forum, registered, and got his problem addressed.

Fantastic! At last the OP did listen to good advice. I am sure any other trouble he gets with iFly he will be now able to get lightspeed assistance, which is why we say iFly support is top notch.So, work done, problem solved, let's go to our refridgerators to get something cool.

Ok Mark, In a post you made about a FLY TAMPA scenery you stated;"...You know, I think im going to take the plunge with it anyway, I think the responses have been positive enough..." EXACTLY, YOU YOURSELF were able to get a pretty good idea on what a product was like BEFORE purchasing it!!! You know how its done Mark, you troll the threads, see what the products like, AS YOU DID ABOVE, then take the plunge when as you say, the responses have been positive enough. If you THEN have a problem with whatever you've purchased, then register and post in their technical forum, ITS FREE MARK, wont cost you a cent. And if you still have problems with it Mark and aren't happy, then you can get, which has been stated here just a couple of times Mark, get a 30 day money back GUARANTEE. The company is not trying to rip you off, its trying to protect what is RIGHTFULLY THEIRS. If they were trying to rip you off, they wouldn't offer you a 30 day money back guarantee. And its that 30 day money back guarantee where your argument fails miserably. When you state, "...To be very honest, why should i care who's stealing what?...", with that atitude, its makes people question what your motives are and doesn't put a very good light on you. And when Developers stop putting products out because people are stealing them and they aren't making money (there not making these products because they love you Mark-believe it or not, its to make money!), i would bet you would be the first to whinge about it. Andy

Hey Andy, sorry it took so long to get back to you on this. My response...OK, until I'm an invalid, I don't let others make decisions on my behalf...especially when it comes to spending my hard earned cash. While I do thank people for the effort to teach me about products through their personal experience, ultimately the decision of what when and how to buy a product is mine...it's my money.Now check this out...take a look at the flyTampa forms and you'll notice a couple of things there. The first thing that you'll notice is that the forums are locked read only. So that means that you can read all of the issues (or hopefully non-issues) that people are having with all of their products.That gives anyone the ability to read through the posts and I didn't see anything FS9 or system threatening in there. The airports that I am interested in (all of them) have their share of issues but most of the time they can be worked to a reasonable conclusion. Please, especially take note of this post...its date and time and who it's from.http://www.flytampa....php?f=20&t=4988You can get to the post, everyone can get to it, and hopefully people can derive something useful from it. That post is from me looking for assistance with frame rates using flyTampa Rebooted. I'm pulling 10-15fps on a mildly overclocked i5-650 running at 4.1Ghz. Now that's some plunge I've taken...Advice is helpful, but I've also learned that it can be very subjective. So given the fact that the software was highly recommended in this forum doesn't mean that it will work well on my system. So I'd like to be able to research software issues before buying the product.Purchasing Flight Simulator anything (or buying the farm)... Don't believe everything that you read. Take the time to research what you're going to buy and if you can, abstain from buying on an impulse. If someone tells you that a piece of software is perfect for FS9, remember that statement is subjective and your system may have a completely different experience from what you've been told.Don't listen to those who attempt to dissuade you from practicing time tested consumer protection guidelines. Anyone who tells you to ignore those guidelines is not acting in your best interest.If a developer will not let you read about product issues in advance, then you are being kept in the dark. Do not succumb to pressure that excuses that type of behavior, especially contentious excuses such as theft. That is the developer making his business problems your fault.And finally, try to have fun doing this hobby and don't take it to seriously :)Mark