As was P.T. Barnum. It's Security Theater, and it's politically correct.

Haha.

Well said... though it's a good thing not everyone has such a relaxed view of the world at large... the gutter media would die out overnight (I wanted to put a 'horrified scream' smiley in here but couldn't find one) and then where would we be? Seriously, I think that's how most people feel despite being aware of possible threats, and that can only be good. ... about any number of countries where democracy is claimed as the national norm. I'm curious about how the cost of private flying, for pleasure or small business, compares on either side of the Atlantic. Or Pacific. Anyone have a comparison? D

No argument from me on that... Re flying, my understanding is that it is both difficult (paperwork) and very expensive in Europe and the peripheral states like Turkey. I lived in Turkey for some years and never saw anything except commercial or military. DJ

An side-effect of giving people liberty is they make their own decisions - not those their superiors wish. It's pointless to base policy on what people ought to think.

Descisions can be, and are, swayed by properly applied propaganda. The Spanish-American war is a classic example of that, as is the so-called 'cold' war. That's as far as I'll go with that. DJ

I don't understand why you keep saying I'm trying to change your mind or make you think a certain way. The whole point of an internet debate on a controversial topic is to state a viewpoint and then back it up with your reasons and disprove the reasons of an opposing viewpoint. This would not be a flaming hot topic if everybody agreed with me. I don't expect everybody to agree with me. I do not want everybody to agree with me. This would be completely uninteresting to me if everybody agreed with me. One of the basic principles of the country you and I live in is that we are all free to have our views and say what we want, while every November, somebody gets up in front of everybody and states a few viewpoints and hope that it is enough to change enough people's minds. These are basic tenets of America. In fact, if you actually think that what I've been writing is even potentially mind changing, then I'm just freaking flattered. It is interesting that the broaching of the words "freedom" and "rights" seem to bother you. Why? Are those taboo subjects? It is also interesting about how dismissive you are about abuse of power. There is nothing dismissive about that. You say it as if it is almost a price you pay. Equally as interesting is your acceptance that you have no rights to do anything. It is as if you feel that you have no rights to or do anything unless the government specifically allows. That is not what America was founded to be. This country was founded as a free country. To me, living in America means we do as we please unless the law specifically disallows it. No, I don't think we should live in a free for all chaos, but a balance between your acceptance of total government control and my questioning of it. And in this country, real debate between the the two ends is necessary in order to find a common sense point at which we can live in. I have a bit more experience with the airport security people. They have humor. I am glad that you say you are not afraid of terrorists, feel that nothing has changed, and aren't afraid to fly. If the population in general leaned that way, then terorrism would get little attention and would die out or frustration and go away. Which was my original point way up in this thread.

I guess I'm not being very clear. For that I am sorry. Although I always get the feeling that you are twisting my words to get a rise out of me. So here goes. I don't recall saying you were trying to change my mind. I said I was not trying to change your mind. Don't read things that are not there. I do not take the words "freedom" and "rights" lightly at all. I object to being told that I have lost freedom when I have to go through airport security. I just don't agree. I never said I accept total government control. I mentioned three things the government does control. All having to do with transportation. A very small portion of my life in terms of personal experience. Hardly the same as saying I feel I have no rights. I'm glad to hear security folks have humor. Perhaps my comment was uncalled for. But none of the ones who have patted me down, or stood there as they put my shoes through a sniffer looking for explosives, even said hello or cracked a smile. I guess I can't blame them; they were old ratty Loafers. I'm not so sure you and I are on as opposite ends of the scale as you think. We don't agree on some things, but as you say, there's the interesting part. As long as we're not insulting each other, I have no problem. Bob

An side-effect of giving people liberty is they make their own decisions - not those their superiors wish. It's pointless to base policy on what people ought to think.

"I often wonder if we have forsaken some of what it means to be Americans...in our response to try to assure our citizens of security....There is no such thing as perfect security...If we are going to be America and everything America stands for, we can't as citizens expect our government to provide 100% security. There are smart things the government should do to mitigate risks... But have we been overzealous, has the pendulum swung too far, such that we are abdicating our value set in terms of what it means to be American, in our desire to be totally safe. The America that I know and believe in is resilient, is courageous, is strong and can rebuild and we saw that spirit after 9/11...but we also saw a desire in individuals to want to be assured of perfect security and be completely safe, and they were willing to give up some of those rights, some of those freedoms, that openess so that they can be perfectly safe, and that is not the courageous resilient America that I know.....What is the kind of American that I want my daughters to be...I want them to be have an open hearted pride, and that they're not afraid, and that they will refuse to be cowed. I understand that there is risk involved in that. And I am not advocating that we be foolish and accept unnecessary risk. My father and my grandfather my mother and my grandmother were part of the greatest generation, and I think we are too, and we should act like it. " - Major Heather Penney. If the "superiors" of our people know that the people should act differently, then those leaders should provide some leadership.

Descisions can be, and are, swayed by properly applied propaganda.

The ##### were very good at swaying people with propaganda.

If the "superiors" of our people know that the people should act differently, then those leaders should provide some leadership.

But do they? Anyway, surely the essence of liberty is that people have the freedom to make up their own minds.

The thread title is "War against GA Flying". GA Pilots or Student Pilots who have been paying attention to governmental intrusion/intervention/regulation over the past three to five years cannot escape that nagging feeling that "Liberty" in the General Aviation world has been traded for a little temporary so called "Security". "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin Sad state to find ourselves in but it appears that we cannot return to a time when freedom and flying were near synonymous terms.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington And here are some more from Ben Franklin...Still applies today 'Tis a common observation here that our cause is the cause of all mankind, and that we are fighting for their liberty in defending our own. - BF Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch - BF In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes - BF By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail - BF Men will ultimately be governed by God or by tyrants - BF Even peace may be purchased at too high a price - BF You may delay, but time will not - BF There is no kind of dishonesty into which otherwise good people more easily and frequently fall than that of defrauding the government - BF To be thrown upon one's own resources, is to be cast into the very lap of fortune; for our faculties then undergo a development and display an energy of which they were previously unsusceptible - BF I have been apt to think that there has never been, nor ever will be, any such thing as a good war, or a bad peace - BF All mankind is divided into three classes: those that are immovable, those that are movable, and those that move - BF Cheers

The thread title is "War against GA Flying". GA Pilots or Student Pilots who has been paying attention to governmental intrusion/intervention/regulation over the past three to five years ....

What specific governmental intrusion/intervention/regulation?

The ##### were very good at swaying people with propaganda. But do they? Anyway, surely the essence of liberty is that people have the freedom to make up their own minds.

Really, you're going to open the a really bad dude box? I'm disappointed in you mgh. You know what they say about the first one in a debate to bring up a really bad dude? They lost. Out of arguments. I'll humor you though. I see your propaganda and raise it with if the German people questioned their government, a whole lot more people would have made it to their birthdays in 1946. How about, the ##### were also very good at, ahem, internal security. This is the America that the terrorists have brought: http://news.yahoo.co...-003800344.html Is this the kind of behavior by the government that you support, mgh? You know, they rounded up all the Japanese people during WWII and locked them away up in Montana or Nevada somewhere. Idea? If this is the direction we are headed, then America is no better than any other place. There will be no reason for anybody to want to seek asylum in the US anymore. This US will be no different than any other oppressive state that somebody will jump into an ocean and try to swim away from. One of the main reason Obama won by such a majority in 2008 was that the people had made up their minds to repudiate George W. and the Republicans for much of what they had done since 9/11 in the name of security. Undoing things like the Patriot Act, closing Guantanamo, etc., etc., were things that Obama campaigned upon. Unfortunately for the people, the truth of the matter is that political leaders are more interested in self preservation. Because of the risk, no matter how small, that there is a successful terrorists attack, and if they've even tried to repeal any security measure, even ones that don't work, they become open to attack by the other party. And you have seen this in the Obama administration. Once elected, all the promises were quietly buried. Nobody is willing to risk it. Once they add even a supposedly temporary security measure, there is no going back. They say that people deserve the government that they get. By our fear, by our lack of courage, by our apathy, by our acceptance, we probably do deserve to lose our liberty and feedoms. At least we think we're more secure.

I'll not attempt to recall the specifics here as there is a long record of this sort of discussion over at the AOPA Forums.I asked earlier if you were an AOPA Member and a RW Pilot because the specifics are mostly found in RW Pilot Forums.Remember the thread starter is a RW Airman and generally not prone to exaggeration on these matters. PS I will mention I heard of one unique recent regulation placed upon Corporate Jet owners which requires them to have an air marshal on board if arriving at the 3 major New York destinations.Perhaps someone can verify...

What specific governmental intrusion/intervention/regulation?

Closing of DCA to general aviation for several months.SFRAGreatly increased TFRssecurity class requirementsaccess restrictions I'm not close to GA, but right off the top of my head, I can think of those.

Those who feel their liberties have been sacrificed as a result of 9/11 were obviously not around to experience what happened after Dec 7 1941.I was.AR

Those who feel their liberties have been sacrificed as a result of 9/11 were obviously not around to experience what happened after Dec 7 1941.I was.AR

I was hoping we would finally get around to this. After Dec 7 1941, war was declared. Are we at war? Or are we in Extended Contingency Operations? When it suits the politicians, they argue that this is not a war, that the captured insurgents should be given court trials and due process as if they were criminals, not POWs. The next day when it suits the politicians, they argue that we are at war and that the citizenry needs to sacrifice some freedoms and liberties. Well, which is it? I'm good with either war or no war, but please choose one of them. If this is to be a war, then let us call it that, and I can be happy with the commensurate level of liberties, food and gas rationing, and treating the enemy as if they were the enemy. If this is not to be a war, then stop penalizing the citizenry as if there was a war. What is happening now is the politicians trying to have their cake and eat it too. Using "war" to make power grabs, and using "no war" as election approaches.

I was hoping we would finally get around to this. After Dec 7 1941, war was declared. Are we at war? Or are we in Extended Contingency Operations? When it suits the politicians, they argue that this is not a war, that the captured insurgents should be given court trials and due process as if they were criminals, not POWs. The next day when it suits the politicians, they argue that we are at war and that the citizenry needs to sacrifice some freedoms and liberties. Well, which is it? I'm good with either war or no war, but please choose one of them. If this is to be a war, then let us call it that, and I can be happy with the commensurate level of liberties, food and gas rationing, and treating the enemy as if they were the enemy. If this is not to be a war, then stop penalizing the citizenry as if there was a war. What is happening now is the politicians trying to have their cake and eat it too. Using "war" to make power grabs, and using "no war" as election approaches.

-------------------- Kevin, I can give you my personal assurance that you do NOT want to return to the situation the world was in on Dec 8 1941, when FDR spoke of "a day of infamy".Despite the present day inconveniences and affronts to our persons, the world is still a much better place than it was then.AR

Yes, the world now is better than the outlook on Dec 8 1941. I just hope we don't lose our vigilance and squander away everything that was fought for then.