I'm sure your faith is blind, but some of us are blessed with sight, and it can clearly be seen that many things that are done in the name of security is but farcical, people are being forced to give up basic rights for little return in added security, while real holes in security remain unaddressed.

Such as described in an article in today's Aviation eBrief:

Aviation security remains vulnerable despite spendingAirport security costs have risen significantly since the 9/11 terror attacks. Air cargo, however, remains a weak point in security. Mandatory screening requirements apply to cargo leaving the U.S., but there is no requirement that incoming cargo be screened to the same standards. Meanwhile, some observers note the cost of screening passengers typically increases after a security breach. "Every time something happens, we add layers," said Robert Poole, director of transportation policy at the Reason Foundation. "It's a very labor-intensive model, and it's based on the underlying premise that everyone deserves to be scrutinized as a suspect."

http://r.smartbrief.com/resp/dfoSBWBepMCaBfgBCicOiECicNdgBl?format=standard

Such as described in an article in today's Aviation eBrief: http://r.smartbrief....format=standard

Once, when I was visiting Lost Wages on a security related working gig, I got a full tour of the airport security area based on my jacket logo - no id, no nothing, just a jacket logo. Fly in peace America! DJ

It appears that old Ben Franklin was correct....

So, let me get this straight. Partially because of the media, Americans are all afraid of terrorists. As a result of this fear, they let the government do whatever it wants, strip away their freedoms, in a blind effort to be "safe." Is that what we are saying? Bob

So, let me get this straight. Partially because of the media, Americans are all afraid of terrorists. As a result of this fear, they let the government do whatever it wants, strip away their freedoms, in a blind effort to be "safe." Is that what we are saying? Bob

I think that covers it pretty well - 'all' might be to strong a word, but it's pretty pervasive in the general population. DJ

I think that covers it pretty well - 'all' might be to strong a word, but it's pretty pervasive in the general population. DJ

OK, thanks. Just wanted to know how I was supposed to think. Bob

Bobbyjack, we already know how you think about this topic. I know you strongly disagree with what I've been writing. However, those are my views, and those are just some of the reasons I have to support those views. If you have a problem with somebody providing a viewpoint and supporting statements, then that is too bad, this is an internet discussion board, and that is what it is for. Provide some of your own. I am not sure what constructive purpose the sarcasm is serving.

Well I think the balance in the USA is a bit too far and not very effective. You got security all over the world and the risk is global as well. You can travel through Hong Kong Airport and still have some of the best security in the world but without it being in your face. I even think traveling through Ben Gurion International Airport is a more pleasant experience then Department of Homeland Security. But they also have better tools at their disposal and have a lot more experience then the USA.

Bobbyjack, we already know how you think about this topic. I know you strongly disagree with what I've been writing. However, those are my views, and those are just some of the reasons I have to support those views. If you have a problem with somebody providing a viewpoint and supporting statements, then that is too bad, this is an internet discussion board, and that is what it is for. Provide some of your own. I am not sure what constructive purpose the sarcasm is serving.

And we already know how you think about this topic. I never said you couldn't have views. I don't think I ever said our government is doing the best job at airport security. I just said I wasn't having as much problem with it as you are. I found your first few posts in this thread very informative. But then all this talk about freedom and rights comes up. And fear. Yes, there have been abuses by airport security folks. My limited experience with them is that they are a humorless lot. There have been abuses by police and others in every country I can think of. Not that that makes it right, but it happens. Will it happen to me? Who knows. I'm not sure I have the "right" to fly on an airplane. Or drive my car on the street. Or take the bus. Why? Because all those things are licensed and controlled by government. At government say-so, streets are closed, drivers licenses aren't issued, busses don't run, and planes don't fly. I am not afraid of terrorists(easy to say in my home). I don't think I do anything different(except go through more security). I am not afraid of flying(hope the plane don't crash). Terrorists haven't won anything as far as I'm concerned. Those are my views and my support for them. I'm not trying to change your mind, but not everyone agrees with you. Bob

So, let me get this straight. Partially because of the media, Americans are all afraid of terrorists. As a result of this fear, they let the government do whatever it wants, strip away their freedoms, in a blind effort to be "safe." Is that what we are saying?

I think that covers it pretty well - 'all' might be to strong a word, but it's pretty pervasive in the general population.

That doesn't say much for the general population does it?

That doesn't say much for the general population does it?

Given the general population's track record of decision making over the past 10 years, there isn't much to say... DJ

I am not afraid of terrorists(easy to say in my home). I don't think I do anything different(except go through more security). I am not afraid of flying(hope the plane don't crash). Terrorists haven't won anything as far as I'm concerned.

Well said... though it's a good thing not everyone has such a relaxed view of the world at large... the gutter media would die out overnight (I wanted to put a 'horrified scream' smiley in here but couldn't find one) and then where would we be? Seriously, I think that's how most people feel despite being aware of possible threats, and that can only be good.

Given the general population's track record of decision making over the past 10 years, there isn't much to say... DJ

... about any number of countries where democracy is claimed as the national norm. I'm curious about how the cost of private flying, for pleasure or small business, compares on either side of the Atlantic. Or Pacific. Anyone have a comparison? D

And we already know how you think about this topic. I never said you couldn't have views. I don't think I ever said our government is doing the best job at airport security. I just said I wasn't having as much problem with it as you are. I found your first few posts in this thread very informative. But then all this talk about freedom and rights comes up. And fear. Yes, there have been abuses by airport security folks. My limited experience with them is that they are a humorless lot. There have been abuses by police and others in every country I can think of. Not that that makes it right, but it happens. Will it happen to me? Who knows. I'm not sure I have the "right" to fly on an airplane. Or drive my car on the street. Or take the bus. Why? Because all those things are licensed and controlled by government. At government say-so, streets are closed, drivers licenses aren't issued, busses don't run, and planes don't fly. I am not afraid of terrorists(easy to say in my home). I don't think I do anything different(except go through more security). I am not afraid of flying(hope the plane don't crash). Terrorists haven't won anything as far as I'm concerned. Those are my views and my support for them. I'm not trying to change your mind, but not everyone agrees with you. Bob

I don't understand why you keep saying I'm trying to change your mind or make you think a certain way. The whole point of an internet debate on a controversial topic is to state a viewpoint and then back it up with your reasons and disprove the reasons of an opposing viewpoint. This would not be a flaming hot topic if everybody agreed with me. I don't expect everybody to agree with me. I do not want everybody to agree with me. This would be completely uninteresting to me if everybody agreed with me. One of the basic principles of the country you and I live in is that we are all free to have our views and say what we want, while every November, somebody gets up in front of everybody and states a few viewpoints and hope that it is enough to change enough people's minds. These are basic tenets of America. In fact, if you actually think that what I've been writing is even potentially mind changing, then I'm just freaking flattered. It is interesting that the broaching of the words "freedom" and "rights" seem to bother you. Why? Are those taboo subjects? It is also interesting about how dismissive you are about abuse of power. There is nothing dismissive about that. You say it as if it is almost a price you pay. Equally as interesting is your acceptance that you have no rights to do anything. It is as if you feel that you have no rights to or do anything unless the government specifically allows. That is not what America was founded to be. This country was founded as a free country. To me, living in America means we do as we please unless the law specifically disallows it. No, I don't think we should live in a free for all chaos, but a balance between your acceptance of total government control and my questioning of it. And in this country, real debate between the the two ends is necessary in order to find a common sense point at which we can live in. I have a bit more experience with the airport security people. They have humor. I am glad that you say you are not afraid of terrorists, feel that nothing has changed, and aren't afraid to fly. If the population in general leaned that way, then terorrism would get little attention and would die out or frustration and go away. Which was my original point way up in this thread.

It appears that old Ben Franklin was correct....

As was P.T. Barnum. It's Security Theater, and it's politically correct.

Given the general population's track record of decision making over the past 10 years, there isn't much to say...

I am glad that you say you are not afraid of terrorists, feel that nothing has changed, and aren't afraid to fly. If the population in general leaned that way, then terorrism would get little attention and would die out or frustration and go away. Which was my original point way up in this thread.

An side-effect of giving people liberty is they make their own decisions - not those their superiors wish. It's pointless to base policy on what people ought to think.