Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

factory15

I still can't land this thing properly..please help

Recommended Posts

So I'm sloooowly becoming acclimated to my new saitek yoke and pedals (former flight joystick user)...and at this point I can properly hand fly it down from the point I grab the ILS to the runway. I disconnect A/T at about 200 ft above....but either I land way too hard or i float down half the runway.There are a lot of great 737 HGS landing vids on youtube which show all of the data during landing and it seems like most during flare will go to -400 v/s @ about 50 ft with a final landing of -100 to -150 v/s which occurs about 15-20 ft off the ground. I am trying to mimic this without much success.I did a full autoland and 'watched' the computer to see what it did and I noticed that it was trimming out for the most part about a 100 ft off the ground or so...i tried to replicate and it did help me fight the yoke death grip to some extent but I'm either landing too hard or i'm floating. And the problem it seems as the difference between the two in minuscule in yoke movement.I've configured the saitek sensitivities and dead zones as per their website. I've tried about 20 landings so far since I've got them with maybe one or two landings that i would call nominal.Would appreciate any input. At the end of the day it may be just more practice.thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

Patrice makes perfect and past FS aircraft may have spoiled some. Or just use to the bigger MD-11 or 744.I had some floating problems myself first times I landed, but HUGS/HUD use helped.A small tip that helped me most would to take over before 200 feet AGL, you might get a better feeling for the plane maybe. Waiting until Radio Mins dose not leave a lot of time to get comfortable. This way your know the plane feeling and just have to stick the landing.I have heard some here describe a method as flying the plane onto the runway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like your use to flying other inferior FS addons. The NGX flys like a plane, and not a computer.- and that is only ONE difference.Its somewhat sad to see so many of my other addons now being phased completley off my hard drive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sounds like your use to flying other inferior FS addons. The NGX flys like a plane, and not a computer.- and that is only ONE difference.Its somewhat sad to see so many of my other addons now being phased completley off my hard drive.
what i'm used to is flying with a joystick with autorudder on. With the NGX I got pretty decent at it with the joystick and figured it was time to graduate to a more realistic setting....but I'm surprised as to how difficult it is landing it gently.This is in a -800

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you look at the Flight path vector on the HGS as a reference, it pretty much tells you exactly when and what to do. Somewhere around 30ft AGL (i forget the exact) youll notice two plus signs sort of appear around the FPV, this indicates that you should begin your flare by pitching up to your 4-5 degree nose up attitude while closing the throttle. My technique, however, involves adding just enough power when those plus signs appear to push the FPV up to the horizon reference line in the HGS followed by fully closing the throttle at 10agl and pitching up to 4 degrees for a -50 to -100 greaser. A little bit more work, but does the job for me. Hope this helps.Gideon Ward

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Steve,Ensure that you are set up for the approach correctly and manage your decent rate and speed all the way down the ILS. A previous post mentioned it correctly, you have to fly the plane onto the deck, this is not a little Cessna that you can hold off for perfect 3 pointer. Pay close attention to your decent rate in the last 200 odd feet, pull back on the power at 50 feet and flare at the same time. If you are coming off the power much higher you are carrying too much speed in your final approach. Don’t float the aircraft down the runway for a perfect landing, ground effect will come into play and you will have exaggerated landing distances and even runway overrun. It’s just practice, practice, practice. It helps if you have a wide monitor and TrackIR, as you will get a better “feel” for it in the last few seconds before touchdown. I work away from home during the week and fly short haul every Mon and Fri. On the odd occasion the pilots will put the A319 down nice and gentle but most of the time, due to the windy conditions, they put it down to keep it down….

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Be sure your approach speed is correct, 140-150kts and full flaps, close the throttles at about 100ft, then slightly raise the nose at around 20ft and let it settle, it just takes a little practice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This has been a difficulty for almost everyone in the early days of 737 NGX.I suggest to land flapping at 30 and trying to point the nose slightly more down ( is this grammatically correct ? ) compared to planes you flown in the past beside the normal procedure.Bear in mind that the 737 NGX stops quickly so do not hurry on landing in the very first feet of the runway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't go for greasers. Just an ever so slight flare and firmly fly the plane onto the runway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Steve, Don't post much around hear but thought I might add my view; All of what has been said here is valid in my experience, having had the NG for a while the most notable thing about it is that it does behave like a real aircraft unlike many other addons and as such will take time to adjust to.The most critical aspect to any landing is a stable approach and spot on speed control; If the aircraft is under proper control during approach then the landing should follow. Speed on the NG is really inportant as it is a slippery plane, only made worse by ground effect as mentioned, you really need to cross the threshold at Vref and allow the speed to come off thereafter during the latter stage/flare of the landing in order to compensate for the increase in lift caused by the ground. Flaps 40 is also best reserved only when you want to get the lowest possible speed as it increases the tendancy to float, flaps 30 is best for most situations.Timing is important also but I would echo the others in saying that a perfectly smooth landing as revered by many passengers is not really relevant in terms of operational proficiency, so long as it is within what the aircraft can withstand and does not cause people to lose there false teeth etc. all is well! When the weather is poor you really just want to get it down, faffing about 30ft off the ground in a gale force wind with an inch of rain on the runway is not a good idea. Aim to land at a certain point within the first third of the runway rather than worrying about prolonging the flare for smoothness.But again speed is key, even in my little TB200 if you are 5kts over the ref speed it will become difficult to land where you want to. You are probably being too hard on yourself, just get used to doing the basic stuff and with practice you will find that one day you will just happen to grease it without any thought. Think about getting it down safely and the rest will follow.Hope this helps

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Per either the the FCOM or FCTM, flare 2-3 degrees at 10 feet while idling the engines.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Practice practice, oh and did I say practice?Its an art, not a science.Try disconnecting the A/P AND A/T when you are established. You will see how the plane continues to fly perfectly because it has already been trimmed out. You just have to make slight corrections.Keep Vref+5, when you hear 20 take out the thrust, and at 10 just pull SLIGHTLY and it should land smoothly.So basically what you are looking for is to keep it at 10 for 1sec maybe.Though, it is always better to just slam it down if you see its not going well, than running out of runway/going around.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be honest, the difficulty people have with floating, and deceleration on the glideslope baffles me.This is what I do, and is akin to real world procedure I believe.I intercept the localiser at 170 knots at flaps 10.I an on the glideslope, at 170 knots flaps 10, descending toward the runway.At 6 miles out, I lower gear. And then select the correct approach speed.Lower flaps as required. [Deceleration is not a problem]By 1000 feet I am fully configured for landing.I then deploy the HUD, and deactivate autothrust.Autopilot off when desired.Landing is simple. Power back at 30 feet, and raise the nose a couple of degrees, until the flight path vector is closer to the horizon line. Too close and you may float, too low and the landing will be heavy.Without the HUD it's still easy. Just raise the nose a tad.No issues with deceleration on the glideslope. No issues with floating unless I do something silly.I had one incident of floating a while back, but I knew it was my fault, I over flared, and placed the flight path vector too close to the horizon line on the HUD.Try placing the flight path vector circle a couple of diameters below the horizon. Without the HUD, glance at the vertical speed as a reference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Flaps 10 is rarely used.At 210kts, go flaps1.Standard approaches call for the LOC intercept at 180kts which gives you flaps 5.Upon G/S intercept flaps 15, gear down, and you start reducing your speed.By the OM you should be in full landing configuration, vref+5, flaps30/40 and the landing checklist completed.Also, try without the HGS, because it really comes down to your feeling than chasing FPV all around the place.Also to add, most SOPs dictate 1-5-15-30 flap extension and 1-5-15-25-40 when flaps 40 is to be used. The use of 25 gives a smoother transition since there is a big difference between 15-40.The key to a good landing is a stabilized approach.EDIT:To add, this is a standard approach. We are not talking about a high speed approach this time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,For the most part of an approach you need to have a deep understanding of how the systems work and when and why they are used. For example to have a nice approach you need to understand all the information displayed on the PFD, ND and EICAS systems. Also the MCP commands are the primary input you will use until you disconnect the autopilot. The best way to learn is to look at real world operations after you've learned all the systems from the manual. Now you can understand all the systems and know how everything should operate but still cannot make good landings (That's my case until recently). I just discovered that you should idle the throttle sooner than in real life. I used to float a lot but as you can see in this video my landing was almost perfect and I did disconnect the autopilot long ago. Also make sure you can disconnect the auto-throtlle from your yoke when you're idling. Normally you can also disconnect the auto-throtlle early but in FSX it's not so easy to control.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi,For the most part of an approach you need to have a deep understanding of how the systems work and when and why they are used. For example to have a nice approach you need to understand all the information displayed on the PFD, ND and EICAS systems. Also the MCP commands are the primary input you will use until you disconnect the autopilot. The best way to learn is to look at real world operations after you've learned all the systems from the manual. Now you can understand all the systems and know how everything should operate but still cannot make good landings (That's my case until recently). I just discovered that you should idle the throttle sooner than in real life. I used to float a lot but as you can see in this video my landing was almost perfect and I did disconnect the autopilot long ago. Also make sure you can disconnect the auto-throtlle from your yoke when you're idling. Normally you can also disconnect the auto-throtlle early but in FSX it's not so easy to control.

You are so gentle...be rude sometimes, false teeth have to fall down like a shells !!I am joking of course, nice landing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You are so gentle...be rude sometimes, false teeth have to fall down like a shells !!I am joking of course, nice landing.
Hahah! Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Flaps 10 is rarely used.At 210kts, go flaps1.Standard approaches call for the LOC intercept at 180kts which gives you flaps 5.Upon G/S intercept flaps 15, gear down, and you start reducing your speed.By the OM you should be in full landing configuration, vref+5, flaps30/40 and the landing checklist completed.Also, try without the HGS, because it really comes down to your feeling than chasing FPV all around the place.Also to add, most Sops dictate 1-5-15-30 flap extension and 1-5-15-25-40 when flaps 40 is to be used. The use of 25 gives a smoother transition since there is a big difference between 15-40.The key to a good landing is a stabilized approach.EDIT:To add, this is a standard approach. We are not talking about a high speed approach this time.
I understand that's a bit outdated now. Most sop's now advocate delaying deceleration until 5 miles out, in order to save fuel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I might add my .02...Although most of the advice given above is Technicaly correct, it's too technical. Of course you need to know procedures, speeds, etc... but there is also a point when you just have to look out the window and fly the airplane. You've told us you've had bad landings, and a few people hit the nail on the head...practice makes perfect. Try to get a mental picture of what the runway looked like when you flared too early, too late, etc. There is a reason for IFR minimums on approaches, pilots need to SEE what is going on through the windows to make good landings...don't get TOO focused on your instruments when you're trying to set the airplane down.Hope this helps...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks guys a lot of good advice in here. I think my problem is that I'm flaring too soon for the most part.Question I have though- what are you guys doing trim wise?? Are you just trimming to keep it on the g/s? Are doing anything else with trim as you get very close..like 100ft above?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks guys a lot of good advice in here. I think my problem is that I'm flaring too soon for the most part.Question I have though- what are you guys doing trim wise?? Are you just trimming to keep it on the g/s? Are doing anything else with trim as you get very close..like 100ft above?
I usually trim the airplane at or above 500ft AGL and that's just to maintain a steady descent path and not having to do little corrections with the controls. I think you should be able to tell if your landing is gonna be okay when you are about 500ft AGL. The most important things on short final should be the speed, the airplane's attitude and altitude. Flaring is also easy when you idle early (at 100ft) you just need to slowly pull the yoke at around 20ft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I rarely doing anything with the trim past the 100ft call. Also, speed is very important. I've never seen RW SOPs on any of the 737s, but my company's SOPs (and this is pretty standard throughout the industry in the US) is at Vref crossing the threshold (50ft above touchdown). Remember that Vref still provides very adequate stall margins - 1.3 x Vso (30% above stall speed in landing configuration) - so don't be nervous about being at that speed. I've noticed the NGX likes to float, and I fly so that I'm on Vref by the time I'm over the numbers. It still floats slightly, but this diffently helps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Timing is important also but I would echo the others in saying that a perfectly smooth landing as revered by many passengers is not really relevant in terms of operational proficiency, so long as it is within what the aircraft can withstand and does not cause people to lose there false teeth etc. all is well! When the weather is poor you really just want to get it down, faffing about 30ft off the ground in a gale force wind with an inch of rain on the runway is not a good idea. Aim to land at a certain point within the first third of the runway rather than worrying about prolonging the flare for smoothness.Hope this helps
Totally agree! In fact, many airlines have a policy of wanting their pilots to land not too hard but firmly. They discourage smooth "greasers" on the basis that on dry runways tyre tread wear is increased and on wet runways you need to break through the film of water quickly to avoid skidding.Iain Smith

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And don't ever forget. A good landing is when you can leave the runway by yourselfe afterwards!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites