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Rockliffe

Different SIDS and STARS

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Well, I am now at that point in my NGX virtual career where things are starting to get interesting, by that I mean things and terminologies are all starting to make sense. So flying the big boys with SIDS and STARS is very exciting for me. Although I prefer to use a SID and then get vectored by ATC for arrivals, as I find this more 'hands on' and interesting, I am nevertheless confused about a short flight I did yesterday. I went into RouteFinder and entered the departure which was Manchester and arrival the airport Bristol. However, after printing out the FP and setting up the route in the FMC I noticed that while I could see the relevent SID, for some reason the STAR was completely alien. The STAR was RETSI, which for some reason did not show as an option in the FMC. In fact there wasn't anything that was remotely close to the name! Is this because the Airac (?) info is out of date, in which case I have to download it from (Navigraph?) Or is there something else at play? which is not beyond the realms of possibility for it to be finger trouble :( Cheers fellas.

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Usually a STAR have a figure after like RETSI2P or similar. Wasn´r RETSI a wp?The SIDs and STARS could change to a diffr name when the AIRAC is updated, but not always.The best way to check if one are using the right SID or a STAR for a rwy is to use updated chartsfor the route.Sometimes however Navigraph have forgotten to change or include that STAR one can seeon an updated charts, but I would say it happens very seldom./ Leffe

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It could very well be an outdated AIRAC cycle? Are you still using the default 1108? Otherwise it could be an old route? If RouteFinder has given you an old route it could have listed an old STAR - I can't be sure as I use vRoute.

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Hi,Just a quick note that the SID and Stars for EGCC have been changed.You need to get the latest ones.Routefinder routes often are outdated.Norman

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Howard, if you can let me have that flightplan, as I have the very latest AIRAC cycle, I will check out that Manchester-Bristol route and check on that RETSI STAR. Alternatively, I'll generate a route via my FSC v9 and see what it comes up as that has been updated via Navigraph.

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Hi HowardYou can download for free the most recent charts for all the UK airports from NATS. I have just checked my Bristol charts and there is no longer a RETSI star. They all now begin with BRI. I also update my FMC nav data with Navigraph and download my overseas charts from there. The costs are low i.e you have to put a min of 10 euros into your Navigraph account which gives you 100 credits. The monthly Nav updates cost 20 credits (the nav data can be used to also update flight planning programmes such as Flight Sim commander and if you ensure that the flight planning programme data and FMS data are both the same cycle you will never get the problem of missing SID's, STAR's or waypoints) and charts for each airport only cost 2 credits.I have only recently started using Navigraph and I now wish I had started using it years ago.It's well worth getting a flight planning programme such as Flight Sim Commander as it is easy to plan your routes so that they start at the end of a SID and end at the start of a STAR.

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Hi Howard, I think RETSI is the first waypoint on the BRI 1A STAR for EGGD. I just tried the same flight with the original AIRAC cycle that came with the NGX and its the first STAR on the left hand side when you press DEP/ARR.Cheers, Gary.

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Hi HowardYou can download for free the most recent charts for all the UK airports from NATS. I have just checked my Bristol charts and there is no longer a RETSI star. They all now begin with BRI. I also update my FMC nav data with Navigraph and download my overseas charts from there. The costs are low i.e you have to put a min of 10 euros into your Navigraph account which gives you 100 credits. The monthly Nav updates cost 20 credits (the nav data can be used to also update flight planning programmes such as Flight Sim commander and if you ensure that the flight planning programme data and FMS data are both the same cycle you will never get the problem of missing SID's, STAR's or waypoints) and charts for each airport only cost 2 credits.I have only recently started using Navigraph and I now wish I had started using it years ago.It's well worth getting a flight planning programme such as Flight Sim Commander as it is easy to plan your routes so that they start at the end of a SID and end at the start of a STAR.
++1 as I have gone the same route,i.e.purchasing credits,etc

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Thanks a bunch guys, it more or less confirmed my thoughts. Thanks for thre offer Rick but I guess I'll head over to Navigraph and get the latest Airac. Sorry to be dim on this, but is it a simple process to get the airac into the FMC?

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Thanks a bunch guys, it more or less confirmed my thoughts. I guess I will head over to Navigraph and get the latest Airac. Sorry to be dim on this guys, but is it a simple process to get the airac into the FMC?
Self-installs.

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Its absolutely critical that you have all the charts for your arrival and departure airports as well, sometimes a STAR is not named after its first waypoint and you have to look through the charts to figure out which procedure you need to fly. Also, sometimes the navdata from navigraph is inaccurate (much more often than you would think, infact, almost every time there's some sort of inaccuracy with a radial, an altitude / speed restriction etc.) so you need to cross check your fmc with the charts after you have selected a procedure.

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OK Johan, so what I have been doing up until now, correct me if this is the wrong procedure to follow, is to generate a FP in FSCommander, then I make a note of the SIDS and STARS, open the FMC, select departure and arrival airports and simply choose the SIDS and STARS that are relevent in the FSCommander FP. I do not import the FP into the FMC 'cos I understand since SP1b the FMC doesn't recognise the SIDS and STARS that have been generated outside of the FMC.So I guess what I do in FSCommander is simply decide my departure and approach and make a note of them ready to choose when in the FMC. I hope that makes sense and I have explained myself well.

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While often STARs are designated by the point they start at, especially in continental Europe, it happens from time to time (I have seen it in UK often), they are designated by other FIX, for example the one they end at. Take Stansted for example, if you are flying in from the mainland. You might end up with your plan at IDESI, but FMC will only offer you LOREL, CASEY, ASKEY and ABBOT. THe key here is to look at the charts. Lets look at the charts backwards, knowing we are to land at RW22. Stansted ILS charts do not show IAF, well that means we need to find them elsewhere. You will find (if you use Jepps) taht pages 30-2S through 30-2X are labeled INITIAL APCH from... so you open them and yes, they guide you to the ILS from ABBOT or CASEY (from the east).That is also the names of the stars, so lets go look at ABBOT stars, in the map 30-2. You will find here, that while the approaches are named after ending point, not the starting point, and from IDESI you need to take ABBOT1C. Now it is just a question of putting it in the box.

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Thanks a bunch guys, it more or less confirmed my thoughts. Thanks for thre offer Rick but I guess I'll head over to Navigraph and get the latest Airac. Sorry to be dim on this, but is it a simple process to get the airac into the FMC?
Hi HowardJust head over to the Navigraph website, click on buy credits,and for 10 Euros(which is about £8+) you'll get 100 credits.One AIRAC cycle 1205(current) will cost 20 credits, the rest goes into your account for the next AIRAC cycle. Choose the aircraft you have in your hangar plus any flight planners, et al, that use a cycle.Download the relevant ones. Then it's just click to run the self-installer, chose the FS version, and you are up and running.

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Guest

Since you are using FS Commander, why don't you use it to figure out the SIDs and STARs...? It seems you only start looking at SIDs and STARs when you are entering data in the FMC...?I just entered your route in FS Commander. RouteFinder showed me this:EGCC SID NOKIN N862 RETSI STAR EGGDAfter copying that into FSC, I went to the SIDS/STAR/TRANS menu, chose STAR display and I was shown 5 STARs for EGGD: BRI1A to BRI1E. By simply clicking on them you will see that BRI1A perfectly fits the plan! The STAR even starts at RETSI, while it's not called like that.Since I can't be bothered with looking up charts and all, this is how I always do it. Very easy and simple.

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Hi HowardAt Bristol all the STAR's end at BRI(NDB 414) and then you fly outbound on a tear drop pattern to pick up the ILS for either 9 or 27. The SID's for Bristol are all named after the last fix on the SID ie BCN 1X is the SID from rwy 27 to the Brecon VOR and BCN 1Z is the SID for rwy 9 to Brecon. If you keep Flight sim commander updated at the same time as your FMS (at no extra cost with Navigraph) and check with the charts it's easy to get the route set up with the relevant SID's and STAR's. If you know your departure runway you can include the SID in your Flight sim commander flight plan. That way FS ATC will not start giving you headings away from the SID. Say I was departing Bristol on Rwy 27 on the BCN 1X SID, I would go to the departures/arrivals page in the FMS and select rwy 27 and then the BCN 1X SID, on returning to the route page you will see at the top of page 2 on the left side BCN 1X and then to the right of that BCN. You can then add the rest of the route. If you were flying back to Bristol say from Manchester you would choose the BRI 1A STAR and that starts at RETSI. When you get nearer to Bristol FSX ATC will tell you which runway to land on and give you vector's; if you wish you can tell them to stand by and select option 3 and that lets you ask for the BRI transition and then you will be cleared to BRI and as you get closer still it will clear you to the ILS and you then just follow the charts.Am over the Bristol Channel from you and both Cardiff and Bristol have simple SID's and STAR's and are great places to get used to using them.Am about to install VOX ATC as that will give you the exact SID and STAR (as long as you programme it correctly) and for my first few flights I will use Cardiff and Bristol.

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Thanks a bunch fellas. I'm literally in the process of downloading all my relevant charts and airac from Navigraph... wow, what a fantastic resource. It will make things a lot easier! Now, if only they could release it on Ipad!!

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Hello Rockliffe,I think that I am at approx. the same stage with PMDG737NGX as you are. I have read the above with great interest and have now looked into the Navigraph page. Now I wonder if it is worth while to get both a flight planner (e.g. FlightSim Commander) AND the data from Navigraph. I tend to think that it might be more fun to plan from the charts then code the FMC. (NOTE: The Navigraph data might not be expensive as such, but I am quite sure that after a while I will have spend a small fortune on that account ;-) )RegardsCarl Michael

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You don't have to buy the charts, they are free from eurocontrol. You need to register but it is easy to use and has lots of stuff: http://www.ead.euroc...ic/pu/login.jsp
Thanks for the info Dan, but I'm afraid after subscribing, logging on and spending 20 minutes searching the site I'm afraid I haven't got a clue what the site is all about. With Navigraph, I found my way aroung and loaded all my charts in about ten minutes!

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Thanks for the info Dan, but I'm afraid after subscribing, logging on and spending 20 minutes searching the site I'm afraid I haven't got a clue what the site is all about. With Navigraph, I found my way aroung and loaded all my charts in about ten minutes!
Yeah, I too had the same after registering, etc. Cannot even load the app. Seems it only favours IE8 and as I run Firefox, seems I'm out. Anyone any clue why this should be so?

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Hi again HowardFor UK charts there is no need to set up an account. You can download them for free from the NATS site.

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Eurocontrol site is really straight forwardEnter Applications->PAMS Light [AIP]Select countryAIP Type ChartsPart AD (for aerodrome), Part ENR (for enroute)click Search

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I don't really like using STARS. Many (most) put you on the glide path a lot later than I like. Usually, what I do is plan the route in FS Commander (RIP Sascha), then manually enter the waypoints in the STAR until I get to a point at least 15 miles from EOD where I intercept the GS. Of course, ATC usually messes that up anyhow.

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