This was very useful, thank you! Just a question, should the Cost Index be 0 for the entire flight or only for the ETOPS segment of the route? If the latter, then my question is, can we just simply modify the CI value in the midair?

 

For an ETOPS flight, the airline will have a standard CI that the dispatcher uses when pulling the ETOPS flight plan. At Aloha, our flight plans were built with a 20 CI which gave a .78M cruise. The Procedure was for the pilot to enter the 20 CI on the ground when programming the FMC and leave it for the entire flight. If you didn’t use the 20 CI that was used to build the flight plan, and used a much higher CI, say 100, it’s going to require a bigger fuel load. A CI of 20 is going to burn less fuel than a CI of 100. So, it was very important to use the CI that the flight plan was built on. A flight may not meet ETOPS regulatory requirements anymore if a higher CI is used.

John Floyd

The EEP and EXP are based on still air. So the distance never changes for the NG regardless of winds. Winglets is 394nm and without is 388nm.

 

JackColwill

 

I'm sorry Jack, but that is not correct. The EEP and EXP are not based on still air. They are, and are required to be calculated on time from/to a suitable landing site (60 minutes). Our EEP and EXP are never the same for our ETOPS analysis for the ETOPS flight plans. They change flight by flight....day by day. The dispatcher calculates the EEP, CP and EXP for each individual flight base on the winds aloft and the aircraft planned alt, weight and preformace.

For an ETOPS flight, the airline will have a standard CI that the dispatcher uses when pulling the ETOPS flight plan. At Aloha, our flight plans were built with a 20 CI which gave a .78M cruise. The Procedure was for the pilot to enter the 20 CI on the ground when programming the FMC and leave it for the entire flight. If you didn’t use the 20 CI that was used to build the flight plan, and used a much higher CI, say 100, it’s going to require a bigger fuel load. A CI of 20 is going to burn less fuel than a CI of 100. So, it was very important to use the CI that the flight plan was built on. A flight may not meet ETOPS regulatory requirements anymore if a higher CI is used.

John Floyd

 

 

That's fair enough, thank you for the clarification!

That's fair enough, thank you for the clarification!

 

 

Alaska uses a fixed CI of 45 for our ETOPS flights. .79M I think....

We set the CI to 0 on the ground. Then you manually enter climb, cruise, and descent speeds in manually. As for the apu bleed/gen leave them off/disconnected. The apu is just to be left running untill needed.

Alsothe RNP for WATRS isn't .1 as stated above. It should be 10.

The ETOPS/WATRS procedures aren't that difficult. Its when you have to alter course due to weather, etc and you can not get a hold of AIRINC to get an amended clearance.

JackColwill

 

That was a typo. 10. Is correct.

I'm sorry Jack, but that is not correct. The EEP and EXP are not based on still air. They are, and are required to be calculated on time from/to a suitable landing site (60 minutes). Our EEP and EXP are never the same for our ETOPS analysis for the ETOPS flight plans. They change flight by flight....day by day. The dispatcher calculates the EEP, CP and EXP for each individual flight base on the winds aloft and the aircraft planned alt, weight and preformace.

 

Jack is a Type Rated NG pilot with WestJet.

 

 

Jack is a Type Rated NG pilot with WestJet.

 

OK..... What does WestJet have to do with Alaska ETOPS planning?

OK..... What does WestJet have to do with Alaska ETOPS planning?

 

Probably flys to Hawii from YVR. Just saying.

LOL... The knowledge I'm trying to share is based on our ETOPS program. Not sure about Westjet.

Both you guys have given great advice from each of your airline SOP's. Thank you

Alaska uses a fixed CI of 45 for our ETOPS flights. .79M I think....

 

What Ci do they use on a domestic leg?

 

 

What Ci do they use on a domestic leg?

 

15 for almost all the NG routes.

 

 

I'm sorry Jack, but that is not correct. The EEP and EXP are not based on still air. They are, and are required to be calculated on time from/to a suitable landing site (60 minutes). Our EEP and EXP are never the same for our ETOPS analysis for the ETOPS flight plans. They change flight by flight....day by day. The dispatcher calculates the EEP, CP and EXP for each individual flight base on the winds aloft and the aircraft planned alt, weight and preformace.

 

Hey 559AS ( sorry not sure what else to call you!). Our ETOPS must be different than yours. I just checked my ETOPS manual and it specifically states based on still air hence the 394nm distance. That distance never changes. If it were based on winds it would change but it doesnt.

JackColwill

Hey 559AS ( sorry not sure what else to call you!). Our ETOPS must be different than yours. I just checked my ETOPS manual and it specifically states based on still air hence the 394nm distance. That distance never changes. If it were based on winds it would change but it doesnt.

JackColwill

 

That sounds a bit odd. From a regulatory viewpoint ETOPS is based on the failure rate (per flight hour) of your aircraft's components and how long any necessary back-up systems can be expected to last. That's why ETOPS certifications always specify a flight time and not a distance. With a bit of a headwind 394nm over ground will take you more than an hour to cover.

Obviously you're the expert here and I'm not trying to call that into question, but I would be interested to learn what the reasoning is behind using still air distance.

 

 

I'm sorry Jack, but that is not correct. The EEP and EXP are not based on still air. They are, and are required to be calculated on time from/to a suitable landing site (60 minutes). Our EEP and EXP are never the same for our ETOPS analysis for the ETOPS flight plans. They change flight by flight....day by day. The dispatcher calculates the EEP, CP and EXP for each individual flight base on the winds aloft and the aircraft planned alt, weight and preformace.

My FOM says they are based on 60 minutes in still air. The ETP/CP change.