Arwen, a moderator of a forum at Avsim is not someone who ensures that even negative comments can be made. Rather, it is somebody who supports that particular game and wants to encourage its development. This no longer seems to be valid for you.

 

Here at Avsim there is a tradition of keeping the fora safe for all users, allowing them to share their enthusiasm and joy and preserving them from the hate and anger, the conflict that are so prevalent on other web sites. That is what the moderators here do, what they have always done.

 

Tom clearly wrote this and this is what is displayed whenever a new topic is started:

You are about to post a new topic to the FLIGHT forum. FLIGHT has been released and this forum is now a support forum for its users. Whether MS was right, wrong or indifferent to the FS community is now water under the bridge. If your post is an attempt to re-open discussion of MS's rights or wrongs, it will be removed. If egregious enough, so will you. Your post can only be a request for support, a hint or help for others, or a resource for other FLIGHT enthusiasts to use.

 

In addition, the Terms of Use of Avsim very clearly state that no forum user may be allowed to prevent another user's enjoyment.

 

If you do not agree with this, then you should make a decision. There is no shame in changing your mind, and Tom will understand. Many of the Directors of Avsim perhaps feel as you do, but the difference is that they do not come to this forum to bash Flight. They do not ruin our enjoyment.

 

In addition, there is really not much point in your hanging about the Connect site since Alaska will only be more of the same Hunts and Hoops and we shall not be asked to test it anyway. And why would you want to test a game, when you don't like games?

 

As for the negative comments in this thread, the point is not whether one understands the opposite point of view or not. Rather, it is whether we place the community above our own feelings of entitlement, above what we consider our sacred right to free speech. This hobby is about enjoying a flight game, not about speaking our minds and ruining other people's enjoyment. It is about welcoming all types of users whether we share their enthusiasm for that type of flight or not.

 

It is definitely not about turning them away, making them feel bad, belittling them, or having them feel afraid to post and participate for fear they will be mocked or disparaged.

 

The Wisdom of the Ages:

- The Golden Rule: Do unto others etc., etc...

- If you have nothing nice to say, then say nothing.

- And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make... :Peace:

 

All we have to do is respect others, not place ourselves above the rest of the Avsim members, not think that what we have to say is so important that the entire world must hear it.

 

Best regards.

Luis

AMEN!

 

Hook

Excellent words Luis, thank you!

Arwen,

It appears that you can't win for losin'. When you were cheerleading for FLIGHT, you got beat up. Now that you're looking at it with a jaded eye, you're getting beat up.

From my part, I express my sympathy to Arwen, and sincerely consider the post by Luis the usual refrain, often read here.

I suspect that some people should decide: if you want discussions, you have to accept also critical views, and possibly also people that progressively change opinions, considering the evolution (or involution) of the product, as it seems the case of Arwen. Otherwise it's also possibile to choose the one-way model, only praises of Flight are allowed, with people expressing their joy for using x-box controllers instead than yokes or joysticks, and happy to fly without cockpit, because is finally so refreshing respect to all those scaring gauges.

A final note: in my opinion in this period Arwen, as moderator, is maintaining a very balanced behaviour, but maybe some people like a more severe censorship.

 

A.

I have ALWAYS supported Flight, and I am pretty upset that some of you are judging my comments in this thread as "evidence" that I'm no longer supporting Flight. My website still has a Flight section, and I still reply to email requests for help in anything Flight related.

 

My job as moderator is to try to maintain order and respect in the discussions here ... and to also add to and begin discussions. I have done all those things. But, if Tom feels that I am not doing my job, I'm sure he will let me know.

 

I've pretty much given up on posting on the Flight Beta Discussion board because some of these same individuals were so insistent in ganging up on anyone who posted anything negative about Flight. Now you are here, complaining about me not doing my job as a moderator, because I am not being enough of a Flight cheerleader, but have dared to agree with another member's negative comments about the direction that Flight seems to be heading.

 

I have always been totally honest about what I was hoping (and still am) that Flight would be. I have NEVER supported it as just a simplified flightsim and NEVER will. If that is all that Flight will ever be than I will not stay with it.

 

My point is that when users purchase DLC, they are sending a message to MS . . . and that message is louder than any number of forum threads about what individuals supposedly like or dislike about the game.

Otherwise it's also possibile to choose the one-way model, only praises of Flight are allowed, with people expressing their joy for using x-box controllers instead than yokes or joystick, and happy to fly without cockpit, because is so refreshing respect to all those scaring gauges.

 

How about we don't look down on people for flying with a mouse or x-box controller. How about we don't put people down for having a different style of play.

 

How about we don't tell people what to like and what not to like, don't tell them what to buy and what not to buy. How about we accept that different people are interested in different things. You're not going to play Flight as a first person shooter, or as a race car game, or any time soon as an airline pilot, but you CAN play it as a GA flight sim or flying game.

 

And how about we drop this pretense of "in my opinion." People seem to think they can say anything they want as long as it includes "in my opinion." And the moderators seem to be letting them get away with it.

 

I'd much rather see this as the Flight support forum than go back to what it was before release.

 

Hook

And how about we drop this pretense of "in my opinion." People seem to think they can say anything they want as long as it includes "in my opinion." And the moderators seem to be letting them get away with it.

 

To continue with your nice style:

how about accepting the simple fact that people in a forum can have different opinions, and if they express them in civil and polite ways moderators have no particular reason to censor them?

 

And how about the title of the forum, including the magic word "Sim", and people with a normal memory know very well how many years of development have been needed to arrive to some levels of simulation, with good representation of actual aircraft and airport systems, and peripherals that try to mimic the real things, and how all this seem abandoned by the new MS way?

 

Why some people have so many difficulties in accepting other views, that by the way are not particularly strange, but simply coherent with decades of development of this nice hobby?

 

A.

I guess everyone is here for the same reason. We enjoy flying.

 

Whether we see it as a game, a simulator or a training device is a personal matter. The way we play a game or chose to call ourselves gamers, simmers or hard core simmers is also a personal choice,

 

I fail to see any wrongdoing when someone moves the eye-point inside the fake cockpit in the P-51 Mustang, or uses an Xbox controller. I and many others can play Flight and imagine we are simulating a flight. Of course I would prefer a working cockpit, but I don’t have it, so I make the best of what I have.

 

For me simulating flying is the name of the game. I enjoyed my Cox wired and RC airplanes, now I enjoy tuning my scanner to hear ATC, making paper planes, starting my beloved 737NGX, and with Flight I definitely enjoy chasing stars, doing hoops and taking Agnes to the hospital every other day.

 

Old-timer’s note: You might remember; back in the 60’s we drawed chalk racetracks on the street-walks and played simulated races with our CorgiToys. I always thought I was Jim Clark and imagined I was inside the car. Then came Hot-Wheels and still preferred my chalk race tracks.

 

 

In life, having Fun is the name of the game.

 

Cheers.

 

How about we don't look down on people for flying with a mouse or x-box controller. How about we don't put people down for having a different style of play.

 

How about we don't tell people what to like and what not to like, don't tell them what to buy and what not to buy. How about we accept that different people are interested in different things. You're not going to play Flight as a first person shooter, or as a race car game, or any time soon as an airline pilot, but you CAN play it as a GA flight sim or flying game.

 

And how about we drop this pretense of "in my opinion." People seem to think they can say anything they want as long as it includes "in my opinion." And the moderators seem to be letting them get away with it.

 

I'd much rather see this as the Flight support forum than go back to what it was before release.

 

Hook

 

Well said Hook.

Let everybody chose how to have FUN. Their own way.

how about accepting the simple fact that people in a forum can have different opinions, and if they express them in civil and polite ways moderators have no particular reason to censor them?

 

It's ok to civilly and politely compare me to a 15 year old? It's ok to somewhat less civilly and politely look down on me because of some imagined deficiency? It's ok to much less civilly and politely (no matter how it's worded) tell me I can't buy certain DLC?

 

Am I not allowed to enjoy Flight? Am I not allowed to express my joy here, without being bombarded by negative "blalancing" *opinions*? We don't need balance. We need a place where people can come to talk about Flight without getting flamed. There are any number of other places on the Internet where people can go to bash Flight and bash Microsoft and bash Fight fans and will be welcomed by the admins who are doing the same thing.

 

Is it going to be impossible to make a thread about the advantages of a cockpitless aircraft without getting up to our ears in detractors? Without being viewed as adversaries? What happened to the SUPPORT in "Flight support forum?"

Not writing much here, mainly reading but have the feeling, I have to give mz 2 cents to this discussion.

As far as I can see/read it arwen didnt put somebody else for his or her opinion down in this thread (or in other threads as far as I read them).

All she said was that she has hoped flight will turn out into a more elaborated sim with time and that this hope is fading now. She valued this course only with the clear statement that it isn't the way she wanted flight to go, but she neverever declared the wishes and hopes of others to be worth less.

 

I strongly hope, she ill continue her engagement for flight in this forum, because I think she did a good job so far.

 

And something in general: I think it's time to calm down when it comes to liking flight or not. At least in this forum people aren't bashing this game/sim mindlessly anymore. Two or three weeks ago there were new threads posted everyday that became a flame war between haters and lovers of flight. It was even worse earlier. Especially the people who liked flight developed a strong reflex to react to the rants/flames of the other side, which is natural and understandable. this reflex still exists in many peoples heads I believe, but at the point the forum is now, most criticism is elaborated and fare away from mindless flames and therefore the reflex isn't as neccessary as before anymore. I think It's a good time to start thinking about the way we understand other peoples posts and to consider the possibility, that it wasn't meant as offending as it seems to be when reading it first.

 

Wrote a lot and hope you were able to understand what I meant since English isn't my native tongue.

In case it didn't become clear enough: the above is only my oppinion and I am sure there are other opinions, that differ much from it. I can live with that and didn't want to offend anybody.

 

Greetings jazznow

It's ok to civilly and politely compare me to a 15 year old? It's ok to somewhat less civilly and politely look down on me because of some imagined deficiency? It's ok to much less civilly and politely (no matter how it's worded) tell me I can't buy certain DLC?

 

Am I not allowed to enjoy Flight? Am I not allowed to express my joy here, without being bombarded by negative "blalancing" *opinions*? We don't need balance. We need a place where people can come to talk about Flight without getting flamed. There are any number of other places on the Internet where people can go to bash Flight and bash Microsoft and bash Fight fans and will be welcomed by the admins who are doing the same thing.

 

Is it going to be impossible to make a thread about the advantages of a cockpitless aircraft without getting up to our ears in detractors? Without being viewed as adversaries? What happened to the SUPPORT in "Flight support forum?"

 

How about you guys both calm down a bit. Debates are fine here . . . getting personal is not.

 

The problem is that being over-zealous about a product (or a developer) and jumping on anyone who expresses a negative opinion, is just as much "flaming," as the other end of the spectrum.

 

I am not bashing Flight. I am not bashing Flight fans. I am not bashing MS. I am and have only expressed my honest opinions here, which has at times included my disappointment in the direction that Flight seems to be heading..

 

I disagree totally. Balance is very important . . . to most of us. If you only want positive comments about Flight, than you better start your own Flight fan club forum, because that is not what this forum is.

If you only want positive comments about Flight, than you better start your own Flight fan club forum, because that is not what this forum is.

 

Take note new fans of flying & of MS Flight this forum is NOT for you!

 

Unless you are happy to read posts like the one below that that call you a 15 year old & a mod is happy to let it pass never mind that the forum owner tells every poster on this forum this.

 

Your post can only be a request for support, a hint or help for others, or a resource for other FLIGHT enthusiasts to use.

 

I gotta assume that cockpit-less flyers are 15 years old or thereabouts. Real "siimmers" like to fly planes they were meant to fly. In control, and using instruments. Dont' mean to hurt anyone's feeliings, but that's my opinion. We are not "gamers".

 

 

Stan

 

Such as shame, I am still waiting for this place to become a nice welcoming home to new fans of flying.

Looks like I will be waiting still longer or as I have now been told find somewhere else :(

Garsands, I wrote "ONLY." I don't appreciate my comments being blown up into over-dramatic nonsense.

 

Even support can included negative comments . . . such as the fact that toe brakes don't work.

 

This forum has tons of support, and I will ALWAYS make sure that a person receives the help they need . . . if no one else helps, I will do my best to help them. BUT this is also a place to discuss Flight in an intelligent manner . . . such as the direction that it seems to be heading, based on the released DLC . . . and the pros and cons of any DLC.

Unless you are happy to read posts like the one below that that call you a 15 year old & a mod is happy to let it pass never mind that the forum owner tells every poster on this forum this.

 

I am not the author of the famous post about 15 years old players, but I don't understand one thing. We read a lot of posts here in the forum about people happy because their children (also less than 15 years old) were enjoying a lot Flight, am I correct?

Furthermore a lot of people wrote that they like start Flight just to relax, after a day of work or other tiring activities.

Also Umberto Eco says that sometimes he needs a bit of Mickey Mouse comics, instead than obscure medieval philosophy, so where is the problem?

 

A.