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boeing247

Business jets

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There's a deal on the Xtreme Prototypes 20-series Learjet right now for just $12, and I've been wanting to get a business jet for a while, and though the aircraft does seem to be pretty well-modeled, and it has good reviews, it's sort of aging, so I was wondering if it's worth getting--even though it's cheap, I don't want to get it if I won't enjoy it. I also want to get the Flight1 Citation sometime, but since it's a bit more expensive than other addons, and I've been spending a lot on other addons, so I haven't bought it yet. Would it be worthwhile to get the 20-series, or just put those few dollars towards the Mustang? (I know it's hard to compare products with such a drastic price difference, but I'm just a student, so I want to get the most value for my money)

 

Thanks,

boeing247

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I really like the F1 Mustang and you are right, it is a very nice one in that small business jet regime. While I don't know about the Xtreme Prototypes, I'd say that the Feelthere Phenom may be right in between on the price and offers some current optics with a less detailed G1000 (compared to the Mustang), being very close to the default one from FSX.

 

Now I don't run her, but I think she's worth a look when it comes to some VLJs. Mark owns that one, so he could give a short review I guess. Depending on the store, you may even find her discounted from time to time.

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Funny you should mention discounts, as it's actually marked down 50% for this week. And I actually realized I'll be able to purchase it soon, so I think I'll either get the Mustang or the Eaglesoft Citation X (I know Eaglesoft wasn't great in the past--how are they now?). The question now is whether to go for the Mustang or Citation X, and whether to bother with Xtreme Prototypes.

 

And about the Mustang, I've heard great things about the G1000, but how is the actual FMS portion of it?

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I think you will find different characters among the Mustang and Citation X. The X is much closer to the airliner style flying, means on the speeds, altitudes and runway dimensions needed. The avionics also reflect that, giving you the two pilot setup while the Mustang is flown by a single guy, mainly the owner I guess.

The Mustang not only integrates all gauges into the pretty decent G1000 gauge, it also stays within the 'small plane' regime when it comes to approach speeds for example. You can keep her fast when flying to huge hubs, but you can also approach at some 90 knots.

 

So you will be able to fly to small fields with that jet, while the X is better suited for medium airports. On the cruise speeds, the X is in another class, cruising as fast as or even faster than the airliner folks while the Mustang just is a light jet.

 

The actual quality is good, while I'd say that the Mustang comes in nicer and sharper. The G1000 on the Mustang comes with a noticeable framerate impact. A modern system can handle this though.

 

When looking for a decent G1000 gauge, the Mustang is a superb package, while you will see that mentioned airliner style FMS (Honeywell) setup on the X, being very close to e.g. some Embraer ERJ. A downside on the Mustang could be that the VNAV feature isn't available and that you can't enter airways, but waypoints only. Both planes don't feature an autothrottle, so you have to handle those. The X will feature some VNAV though, allowing to plan with the help of the avionics and then 'following' with the throttle.

 

On the throttles, the X needs a registered FSUIPC version to correctly handle the FADEC feature.

 

Well, you can test them both due to the Flight1 system. The Mustang receives frequent updates, which is a nice point on a plane being available since a few years. She also features some icing effects, which isn't that common on FSX planes.

 

I'd say, for the speedy trips, pick the X and for flying into smaller places, but still using a jet which can fly high and reasonably fast, head for the Mustang.

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Weird there are almost no comments or youtube videos of ESDG's CJ1+ v2.0 business jet. It's the next one on my list. To some reason I don't really like the cockpit/dashboard/windshield look of Citation X in the real thing, which ESDG modeled very well (lol, no pun intended). I just wonder if they have implemented FADEC in CJ+ v2.0 like they did in CX v2.0, can anybody comment on this?

 

Thanks,

Dirk.

 

Both planes don't feature an autothrottle, so you have to handle those.

 

To make sure everybody understands as it was asked before many times: there's no autothrottle for this model types in the real planes, of course.

 

Dirk.

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I just wonder if they have implemented FADEC in CJ+ v2.0 like they did in CX v2.0, can anybody comment on this?

 

Hello

No FADEC in the CJ1+ and never will have according to the developers, despite the real aircraft having one, it does have a gem of an FMS though.

The CX is on a different level quality wise and is far and away the best thing Eaglesoft ever made.

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No FADEC in the CJ1+ and never will have according to the developers despite the real aircraft having one, it does have a gem of an FMS though......

Umm, it was planned but the team member who creates that feature at a high level left due to real life challenges.

If he returns or we find someone suitable it will be added back,

Meantime it would serve many in the community well to fully understand FADEC, what it does and why.

Many still seem to think it is an Autothrottle... :Nerd:

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Yes, the XTreme Prototypes LearJet 23 is worth getting. There is an Avsim review of it, which is a very fair assessment of it, so check that out..

 

In my opinion though: minus points are the rather clean looking cockpit and the sounds are a bit weedy for a CJ610 turbojet. Everything else is good, systems are realistic, it has a good flight model (very good in fact, since the 23 Series LearJet is not an easy aeroplane to fly), a good exterior model, good VC (very clean looking, but well modeled).

 

Great manual with it too, very nicely done and helpful in terms of starting it up and getting you into the air fast. It's well worth the full price, and certainly worth it for 12 Bucks, since you actually get six variants in the package.

 

Keep in mind though, that like the real LearJet 23, it has a short range, although there is a variant with the large extended tanks in there, but even that one is nowhere near capable of the kind of ranges which more modern business jets can fly. It also has a very high approach speed, so don't expect to get it into places where a Mustang Citation could land.

 

Al

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Where is it on sale for $12 dollars? I only see $24 on their site an same for FSS?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Bleh... I found it to be alright. The model is decent though... but the flight model was very interesting... the throttle was touchy and full power was like F-14 power hehe... maybe it was my controls. The VC was decent but lacking "soul." Reminded me of an FS9 VC, but smooth gauge operation and 3D. Hand flying was difficult especially at approach speeds. I've since deleted it from the HDD.

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Personally, I like Xtreme Prototypes 20 very much, It is challenging to handle it. You have to think ahead a lot.

You can watch my old video here

It is taken from replay so the sound is skewed and no yokes animations here and so on...

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Yes, the XTreme Prototypes LearJet 23 is worth getting. There is an Avsim review of it, which is a very fair assessment of it, so check that out..

 

Okay, I think I'll get the Learjet--I had read that review, but it was a few years old, and reviewers have become pickier as addons have gotten better, so I wasn't sure...

 

 

And CoolP mentioned that the Mustang does not have VNAV or the ability to insert airways. Is that the same in the real Mustang, or has it been simplified?

 

And on the Citation X, how necessary is the registered FSUIPC?

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I'm glad that Alan and others joined in, to give you some info on the Xtreme Prototypes.

 

And CoolP mentioned that the Mustang does not have VNAV or the ability to insert airways. Is that the same in the real Mustang, or has it been simplified?

 

And on the Citation X, how necessary is the registered FSUIPC?

The real Mustang G1000 does the VNAV calcs and predictions. You can see the data fields being present in the F1 rendition, but they remain empty. Same as the VNAV button on the AP control panel is inop. So it's on you to do the calculation for e.g. the TOD or a proper descend rate to match some altitude constraints.

 

For me, this may be the only real lack of that G1000 since the use of it in a jet, flying a lot SIDs and STARs and also flying high, so needing a proper descent planning, would be great. I mean, you are flying some state or the art equipment with a G1000 there, you just don't have access to the VNAV stuff.

 

The airway entries would be nice. The real G1000 has it, but it's no big downside in the sim since you can enter the waypoints quickly or just import your flight plan. The last part is vital on longer routes and acts as a nice workaround.

 

And those two items shouldn't be read the wrong way. You will receive a very detailed and certainly amazing gauge. So there's time needed to learn or just develop some jealousy towards the folks flying the real thing since the G1000 situational awareness enhancement is a blast.

 

I guess the non registered FSUIPC in the Citation X renders the throttle detents to remain at static thrust values. The throttles will still work, but the FADEC adjustments due to altitude and temp changes won't happen. I've never tried it without a registered FSUIPC, so that's guesswork of course.

 

Both planes don't feature an autothrottle, so you have to handle those.

To make sure everybody understands as it was asked before many times: there's no autothrottle for this model types in the real planes, of course.

Exactly.

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Bleh... I found it to be alright. The model is decent though... but the flight model was very interesting... the throttle was touchy and full power was like F-14 power hehe... maybe it was my controls. The VC was decent but lacking "soul." Reminded me of an FS9 VC, but smooth gauge operation and 3D. Hand flying was difficult especially at approach speeds. I've since deleted it from the HDD.

I found the FDE to be very interesting as well on my X52 pro. Flew more like a fighter than a bizjet

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Well, it actually is not surprising that the LearJet 23 flies like a fighter, because it had much of its conceptual roots in what genuinely was a fighter/bomber design, that being the FPA P-16, whose wing design it basically shares.

 

The Lear 23 has on more than one occasion been described as being like a fighter jet with a luxury cabin, which is hardly surprising given its sleek shape, size and weight, it having a wingspan of only 35 and a half feet, and with an MTOW of only 12,500lbs, figures which are much more like a fighter plane's statistics than those of a business jet. Take for example the F-86 Sabre, which has roughly the same wingspan, but 6,000lb greater MTOW, the twin engines of the Lear producing roughly the same thrust as the single engine on the Sabre. It's easy to understand why, when you look at those figures, the Lear 23 is such a slippery thing, and of course why it actually isn't that great of a design as far as business jets go in practical terms. Stick a couple of guns on it however, and it could probably have given a MiG-15 a run for its money LOL

 

Al

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While Alan's post is informative, as always, I would like to clarify a few points for anyone considering purchasing the Lear package, which I recommend.

 

The Xtreme Prototypes Lear 20 package does not include the 23 model.

 

It does have the 24, 25, and 28, with respective MTOWs of 13,500, 15,000 and 15,000.

 

The 28 has a wingspan of 43.8 feet .

 

Also, none of the models have extended tanks, in fact the 28 has reduced fuel capacity as it trades the wingtip tanks for winglets which make it more aerodynamically efficient, yet still cost it some range.

 

None of these planes fly for much more than 3 hours without running out of fuel.

 

I find them a blast to fly and think they are a steal at $12.

 

regards,

Joe

 

[edit]

also, as is true with planes from that era, terms like FMC and VNAV have no use in an early Lear cockpit. Even though there is a GPS in the cockpit, the AP has no NAV/GPS switch so you cannot have the plane fly the magenta line automatically.

[/edit]

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After reading this thread, I went ahead and purchased this for the deal and after a simple test flight, I'm glad I did. Very easy on the frame rates and fun to fly. While the exterior and interior is nothing special, they are both solidly done and I have no issues with getting immersed in it.

 

I probably need to read the manual to figure out why my flaps didn't work, though. It may have had something to do with all the flashing red warning lights after Ctrl-Eing for a quick startup.

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While Alan's post is informative, as always, I would like to clarify a few points for anyone considering purchasing the Lear package, which I recommend.

 

The Xtreme Prototypes Lear 20 package does not include the 23 model.

 

It does have the 24, 25, and 28, with respective MTOWs of 13,500, 15,000 and 15,000.

 

The 28 has a wingspan of 43.8 feet .

 

Also, none of the models have extended tanks, in fact the 28 has reduced fuel capacity as it trades the wingtip tanks for winglets which make it more aerodynamically efficient, yet still cost it some range.

 

 

Whilst it is true Joe, that the Xtreme Prototypes set does only have the 24, 25 and 28, the LearJet 24 is essentially a LearJet 23 with the addition of wingtip tanks and slightly raised MTOW certification. There are a few other minor differences such as uprated engines, but that's about the size of it, so the 24 is effectively an extended range version of the 23. The 25 is basically a stretched 24, and the 28 is a 25 with a new wing.

 

Al

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I probably need to read the manual to figure out why my flaps didn't work, though. It may have had something to do with all the flashing red warning lights after Ctrl-Eing for a quick startup.

 

Check them from the exterior. The flaps switch itself is a little weird. And does anybody who has it know how to trim it? There are all these mentions of trimming in the manual, but nothing on how to actually trim the aircraft.

 

So I think I'll probably go with the Citation X if not having a registered copy of FSUIPC won't be a big problem, but otherwise, are there any other good business jets?

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Whilst it is true Joe, that the Xtreme Prototypes set does only have the 24, 25 and 28, the LearJet 24 is essentially a LearJet 23 with the addition of wingtip tanks and slightly raised MTOW certification. There are a few other minor differences such as uprated engines, but that's about the size of it, so the 24 is effectively an extended range version of the 23. The 25 is basically a stretched 24, and the 28 is a 25 with a new wing.

 

Al

 

Al,

 

The 23 has wingtip tanks too, and due to the weight increase the range of the 24 is less than the 23, not more.

 

There are quite a few differences between the 23 and the 24 including a new windshield, system redundancies, changes in the fuel an pressurization systems, oh and the 23 and 24 are certificated to different standards as well.

 

Either way, I was simply trying to be clear about what the Xtreme Prototypes Lear 20 package is and isn't.

 

regards,

Joe

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One thing they have in common is being a handfull to fly, as the fuel weight decreases this plane gets faster and requires corrections to maintain ASI , landing as mentioned takes a bit of care , an eye on pitch and speed and a longish runway as the builders ( Guilty as Charged ) didnt install Thrust Reversers on it the cheapscates, anyway i have stalled this into the fence more times than i care to admit, at least it dont blow up like the Bell-X1 but its damn near as fast.

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So I think I'll probably go with the Citation X if not having a registered copy of FSUIPC won't be a big problem...

Manual detent setting is really not a big deal for sim enthusiast and most cannot tell the subtle differences in FS9 or FSX... :Nerd:

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Either way, I was simply trying to be clear about what the Xtreme Prototypes Lear 20 package is and isn't.

 

regards,

Joe

 

Yeah, I know. And you are right to point out that the 23 isn't in there, just in case people thought it might be. Still, whatever is and is not in there, the XP 20 Series Lear package is a good one, especially for 12 bucks, that's the main thing.

 

Al

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