Topic is a bunch of babble.

If I might add my 2 cents worth, there's a project (www.project-do228.com) where the developers seem to have vanished. I was really excited about this one as I love Dornier 228s and 328s and was following the development then..... POOF! Nothing at all! This model's quality was SUPERB! The website domain is still being looked after it seems but the project is just......DEAD! That one hurts....

 

Cheers.

Any developer who starts a project, without a reasonable Plan and estimated goal timescale to complete, is risking a project disaster and a potential expensive unplanned budget overspend.

 

This applies to both the medium and large Addon developers, as well as the big guys, like Microsoft Aces. ( Remember FSX development -- RTM - SP1 - SP2 ).

 

 

This conventional wisdom of project management really doesn't apply to FS addon development.

 

The difference here is unlike a Microsoft Employee, the addon developer gets no income from the product during development. And the income derived after release certainly is not enough to make it their full time profession. The FS addon market is just too small.

 

Since most FS addon developers are 'part time', and they are not compensated during the development period, There is just no way you can expect part timers to adhere to any sort of hard project deadlines.

 

Make all the plans you want, they go all out the window when your lead designer gets a new promotion at his full time job, or has a child, and no longer has the same time he had to work on your product.

 

This is the issue distributers such a Aerosoft etc often have to deal with. They are at the mercy of the addon developer they've contracted with. They hope the product is delivered in the time that was given, but if the developer wasn't paid up front they don't have a lot of say, other than to ask for progress reports. Its done when its done.

 

These addons individuallty simply do not generate enough income that you can manage them like

traditional software development projects when a capital investment is made and a return on investment is expected.

 

Regards.

Ernie.

A good point Ernie, and something to keep in the back of our minds before bashing a dev or a product.

 

It still isn't a very good excuse for not being good at marketing and customer interaction. There are freeware devs that manages to do a better job at this than many payware devs.

Well I have to disagree with both of your points for the reasons below

A good point Ernie, and something to keep in the back of our minds before bashing a dev or a product.

There's an old saying "If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen". Once you start to SELL add-ons you are a commercial producer and be that part or full time (and they aren't ALL part timers) you must expect the same treatment as any other person selling any other product.

 

Having helped on Train Sim Freeware add-ons I have a lot of sympathy for simulator add-on developers and certainly many critics have no idea how impractical or beyond the control of the developers actual input some of their requests and criticisms are ....BUT if Ford make a lousy model car or Sony a bad TV you don't hear people calling the justifiable criticism "bashing".

 

If you create something and sell it in the public domain the great unwashed are going to feel free to criticise it. Criticism can be good, constructive, bad or downright malicious ....but if you can't take it stay out of the kitchen. Most creative folk can decide what could be improved, what's beyond the Sims capability and who's just having a dig. The good ones fix stuff and grow thick skins. They also improve their skills as they learn the tricks and skills of their craft.

 

 

It still isn't a very good excuse for not being good at marketing and customer interaction. There are freeware devs that manages to do a better job at this than many payware devs.

I've no experience of FS development but I know from Train Sim projects that there is a lot of "one step forward, two steps back" in any project. You do some screen grabs of how things are progressing and then someone testing the project finds a major flaw in some aspect and you find yourself back before those shiny screengrabs. Now you can waste time on the PR or you can roll up your sleeves and fix the problem.

 

Bringing you back to my earlier post do you harass Fords or Sony because they're not keeping you abreast of their latest products? I doubt it? You may read the Motoring Press and Tech sites to keep abreast of new developments but you don't expect manufacturers to document each stage of their latest models do you? :huh:

 

When the next PMDG (which doesn't interest me) is released those who want it will buy it. When the new C172's and An-2 are released I'll buy at least one of each of those. It's great that I CAN follow development through forums of those but I wouldn't be throwing a hissy fit if I couldn't :lol: . I'd just be pleased that they were in the pipeline.

 

Geoff

Im getting the sense that devs dont release too much information because they want to protect thier product from being copied. Or at least an idea. Dont want to reveal too much.

 

 

EXACTLY !!

Well I have to disagree with both of your points for the reasons below

..

There's an old saying "If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen". Once you start to SELL add-ons you are a commercial producer and be that part or full time (and they aren't ALL part timers) you must expect the same treatment as any other person selling any other product.

 

 

Your disagreement seems to be out of context.

 

The entire crux of this thread is regarding communication from developers to their customers regarding products in development.

 

So any treatment being received at this point is regarding a product you have not started to sell yet.

 

Regards.

Ernie.

I can understand hiding and protecting your work to a certain extent. Ideas can and would be stolen. But occasional updates would be nice. It just satisfies curiosity and anticipation. Something like...

 

project is going well although we have run into a number of bugs. We have just finished the electrical system modelling, and are beginning the FMC development phase. Here is a picture of the overhead electrical panel.

 

Short and sweet, yet those who are anxiously awaiting can see yes work is being done. Doesnt reveal any unique ideas but is still informative.

 

Another model that I see being employed by a few, is getting the public to be beta testers. Opus does this as well as captain sim. This makes sense as the devolopment phase is all about programming and then testing how it works. Well the testing requires alot of hours and therefore alot of money. If you get the public to test on so many systems you can really get bugs to appear quick and therefore address them much quicker.

Pro ATC also did this, but its kind of expensive as it was arguably declared as a finish product. But now there is more and more users, we are finding bugs, but they are being addressed usually on a weekly basis update. This seems very efficient and no need to hire and pay testers.

 

This way we are seeing the product in action. anticipation and curiosity satisfied. If you dont agree with it that way then dont buy it and dont test it. Wait till the reviews are satisfactory and its a more finished product.

 

 

Just my 2 cents. I have alot of respect for developers and the bashing they get from unappreciative consumers. Just asking for more communication isnt that hard. Without us loyal consumers who are dedicated to our hobby, they wouldnt be selling it in the end after its finished.

Your disagreement seems to be out of context.

 

The entire crux of this thread is regarding communication from developers to their customers regarding products in development.

 

So any treatment being received at this point is regarding a product you have not started to sell yet.

 

Regards.

Ernie.

Ernie your selective quote of my previous post is out of context :unsure: I think you need to read it again because I responded to two seperate issues ...and I still don't get why folk think they need, or have a right to, "step by step" updates? If they're available great! But if not just be patient?

Maybe, but they PAY for the privilege. The very first law of business: The customer is always right!

No, the customer is not always right. What is true is that the customer is always the customer who only thinks he's right.

 

Personally I want to help every customer who has a problem, but sometimes they simply won't let me help them, in which case I can only offer to make them whole via a refund.

Once you start to SELL add-ons you are a commercial producer and be that part or full time (and they aren't ALL part timers) you must expect the same treatment as any other person selling any other product.

 

Having helped on Train Sim Freeware add-ons I have a lot of sympathy for simulator add-on developers and certainly many critics have no idea how impractical or beyond the control of the developers actual input some of their requests and criticisms are ....BUT if Ford make a lousy model car or Sony a bad TV you don't hear people calling the justifiable criticism "bashing".

 

Bringing you back to my earlier post do you harass Fords or Sony because they're not keeping you abreast of their latest products? I doubt it? You may read the Motoring Press and Tech sites to keep abreast of new developments but you don't expect manufacturers to document each stage of their latest models do you? :huh:

 

Geoff

 

You have many good points Geoff, and I don't totally disagree with you, but does everything have to be either/or or black/white?

 

The only FS dev comparable to Ford or Sony would be Microsoft. Very few FS addon devs are of significant size, and just as I don't treat the shoemaker on the corner as I would Adidas or Nike, I don't treat FS devs like they were Ubisoft or Microsoft. That doesn't mean they should get away with everything.

 

I don't harass anyone, but I do demand a good relationship with whomever I do business with, both as a seller and customer. In my professional career access to product development news, factory visits, workshops and meetings with company reps contribute to us being loyal long term partners. It also makes us less price sensitive. I wouldn't expect or be interested to hear about product development news from the "makers of bread and butter", but from creators of hi fidelity niche products and art I would.

 

 

No, the customer is not always right. What is true is that the customer is always the customer who only thinks he's right.

 

Personally I want to help every customer who has a problem, but sometimes they simply won't let me help them, in which case I can only offer to make them whole via a refund.

 

Congrats. Finally someone who doesn't take the phrase literally and understand what it means!

Customer most certainly is not always right. Some customers aren't worth having and end up costing you money.

 

Agreed. Something I have learned quite well in tech support.

I can understand hiding and protecting your work to a certain extent. Ideas can and would be stolen. But occasional updates would be nice. It just satisfies curiosity and anticipation. Something like...

 

project is going well although we have run into a number of bugs. We have just finished the electrical system modelling, and are beginning the FMC development phase. Here is a picture of the overhead electrical panel.

 

 

All that would do is generate a bunch of questions you now have to answer regarding how much detail and functionality is featured in the 'completed' section. They are going to want to know what features and functionality are included and just as importantly what features are 'not' included. And if you did not include a particular feature a customer feels is important he's going to try and lobby you to get it in. And on top of that they will be asking for estimated completion dates for the next section you are working on. And you'll be doing this every single time you announce a section is completed.

 

And if you don't progress with a section as fast as people think you should, you are going to have to deal with questions and complaints about that. ("why is it taking you so long to complete the Overhead panel" ??, "when are you going to start on the MCP" ?).

 

Occasional screenshots are probably best, they reveal some progress, but are still vague as to where the project stands.

 

Regards.

Ernie.

Don't you guys get tired of the waiting game?

 

It has been 6 years since FSX has been released now, so 6 years of waiting for the next addon from a developer. I decided long ago not to play the anticipation game any more and just enjoy what we have already. When something gets released I will buy but more then happy to wait....

 

We have been waiting 6 years now so if it takes a developer an extra month or two to get something right......then so be it. What is an extra month or two at this point. I am not counting anymore

 

Cheers

I think that's about spot on Ernie. If you say you're developing features B & G and then find you can't get G to work well enough they'll damn you for not doing it and if you say you're not going to include D & F but find F works well so include it they'll complain that you didn't spec that in the first place :lol: If finding out G won't work or developing F takes a bit longer they'll criticise you for taking too long to release it :blink: . Release it with glitches and they'll harangue you for not testing thoroughly :( .

 

Screenshots work for me. An updated forum is better .....but when the Tri pacer was released recently it came as a pleasant (but complete) surprise to me. So I bought it. I suffered no angst during it's development ......because I didn't know it was underway .

 

but I do demand a good relationship with whomever I do business with, both as a seller and customer.

If you change demand for "expect" or "value" we're singing from the same song sheet. If you take your custom anywhere where you actually meet face to face you remember and value the greeting, an exchanged joke, banter a good natured haggle etc. ...and you'll go again. Online we miss that but it comes across in responses to support issues and general word of mouth feedback on how helpful the dev was?

 

Geoff