A Little Prayer for all the Victims and Families in Connecticut

[Great Ozzie 101]

I take issue with your statement in that you say that because I was raised without faith, I am an immoral person.

 

I do not see where Chase said this.

 

I like to think I adhere to the same morals as the rest -- I don't cheat, steal, kill etc. I would never even remotely entertain the idea of killing somebody, and I don't have a religious backing for my convicitions.

 

Ok given that... it sure sounds as if you were taught these things by someone "religious" or having some sort of religious ethos.

 

I should be subjected to religious indoctrination just to be sure I don't go off and shoot people?

 

Indoctrinated is the wrong word here (at least for me)... "trained in the way you should go" I think would be more accurate.

 

It's common sense and basic human empathy, not a belief in God.

 

As Cain so aptly demonstrated with his brother Abel.

[FrankG2625 9]

I do not see where Chase said this.

Our youth are seriously troubled and handicapped before they even begin life because they lack moral education.

 

Ok given that... it sure sounds as if you were taught these things by someone "religious" or having some sort of religious ethos.

No. My parents are both Atheist I don't understand why religion has a monopoly on raising a child to be a decent person! If I had a religious upbringing, I might be just as likely to kill people, seeing as that's what half of the Bible talks about anyway (yes, an exaggeration, but you get my point... it's not really a happy book, the Bible). My morals are not based on religion, they're based on respect for others and a sense of honour and fairness.

 

As Cain so aptly demonstrated with his brother Abel.

QED

 

This is veering wildly off-topic, so I'll end here. If you'd like to discuss this further, don't hesitate to shoot me a PM.

 

I urge anyone with 15 minutes to spare to read this: http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother

[Chase 304]

 

I take issue with your statement in that you say that because I was raised without faith, I am an immoral person. I like to think I adhere to the same morals as the rest -- I don't cheat, steal, kill etc. I would never even remotely entertain the idea of killing somebody, and I don't have a religious backing for my convicitions. I should be subjected to religious indoctrination just to be sure I don't go off and shoot people? It's common sense and basic human empathy, not a belief in God.

 

I'm not offended, by the way, I just don't agree with your solution. I understand that you have a right to express your thoughts, I just don't think I should be subjected to rules based on something I don't believe in.

 

I do, however, believe that this tragedy could have been avoided with a more developed mental healthcare system. I think that in the end, that's what failed him. Jew, Christian, Muslim, Athiest, if he had mental problems, his upbringing is not to blame. There are plenty of Christians who have killed senselessly, as are there plenty of Muslims, Athiests, and Jews. To say that he lacked morals is avoiding responsibility as a country for his mental wellbeing and psychological care.

 

Agree with Rob and what he said in response. I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I don't care what anyone believes in, any religion or spiritual whatever... It's important to have faith in something. We will all go through trials in life where people are taken away from us, personal tragedies strike, etc. Without faith you are missing a binding link to a greater understanding.

 

Also, not sure how you can imply a lack of morals aren't to blame here. After all, you say you possess them and would never do this... So how could he possess morals and do it? I don't think he had any. And I do agree mental health care is a rather looming problem in the USA, but it all starts with us working on compassion.

[Ben Cap 89]

Such a sad story.... Truly despicable acts carried out by an evil man.

 

No amount of money, gun control, laws or law enforcement could ever repair the damage done to the families and the community.

[Airbus Commander 563]

It's important to have faith in something. We will all go through trials in life where people are taken away from us, personal tragedies strike, etc. Without faith you are missing a binding link to a greater understanding.

Begging your pardon? I think you mean to say that "for some, it's important to have faith in something". I'm an atheist, and I've never found the need for a higher power of any kind. I simply make the best of what I've got and do my best because you only get one chance to make a difference (IMO). Not everyone needs to believe in something that may, or may not exist.

 

 

Ok given that... it sure sounds as if you were taught these things by someone "religious" or having some sort of religious ethos.

Sir are you saying that my children's morals are invalid as they were taught by someone with no religious ethos?

 

To make my point clear here, I mean no offence to anyone, I'm all for people believing in whatever they wish, and certainly wouldn't go shoving my beliefs down others throats, but the lack of belief in a higher power is just as valid a belief as anyone who does believe in a god.

 

Plenty of people without religion, myself included, have very high moral standards, plenty of people with religion don't have high moral standards. Religion is not the defining factor in how one behaves morally.

 

Regards,

Ró.

[IFR7700 228]

Isn't it interesting that you are only allowed to invoke the name of God (whoever your God is) after a tragedy such as this occurs on public school property.

 

Evil exists. Evil has always existed. Evil will always exist. The number of these types of tragedies is actually decreasing per capita. The only difference now is we have hundreds of 24 hour news channels who must fill the airways with the topic du jour. And if you'll notice, the news media got everything wrong in the beginning. Incompetence on parade. Yet these organizations shape the thoughts and beliefs of way to many Americans.

 

Gun control is an issue generated by the communist left in this country. It's our Constitutional right to own and lawfully use them. The Second Amendment was installed by the founders to protect the people from its government, which may be usurped by the communist left. My 7th grade algebra teacher had a pistol locked in his desk drawer. He showed it to me. I'm sure he wasn't the only one. Any goth-like, mental misfit would not have gotten very far in that school. Isn't it interesting that the shooter in this tragedy only stopped shooting and killed himself when he had a gun pointed back at him?

 

Lord, take these innocent souls into Thine hand. Grant strength to the family and know that, in the end, evil will be vanquished by Thy judgement. Thy Will be done. Amen

[Great Ozzie 101]

If I had a religious upbringing, I might be just as likely to kill people, seeing as that's what half of the Bible talks about anyway (yes, an exaggeration, but you get my point... it's not really a happy book, the Bible).

 

I would reckon it would depend on the type of "religion". There could be some religions that advocate murder of innocents. If you read "The Bible" completely through (The Tanakh / Christian "Old Testament" & Christian "New Testament") no... that is a wild exaggeration about being half about killing i.e somehow that is acceptable in this context.

 

No, I do not understand your point because as it is written... “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

 

Btw thanks for the link about "I am Adam Lanza's mother"... read that earlier as it was on the news here.

 

Sir are you saying that my children's morals are invalid as they were taught by someone with no religious ethos?

 

No Ró... absolutely not. I specifically said "sounds as if"... that has absolutely nothing to do with validity.

 

 

Plenty of people without religion, myself included, have very high moral standards, plenty of people with religion don't have high moral standards.

 

I certainly believe this... in fact I think some who call themselves "Christians" can be some of the worst "offenders".

 

 

Religion is not the defining factor in how one behaves morally.

 

Agreed.

[FrankG2625 9]

Isn't it interesting that you are only allowed to invoke the name of God (whoever your God is) after a tragedy such as this occurs on public school property.

 

Evil exists. Evil has always existed. Evil will always exist. The number of these types of tragedies is actually decreasing per capita. The only difference now is we have hundreds of 24 hour news channels who must fill the airways with the topic du jour. And if you'll notice, the news media got everything wrong in the beginning. Incompetence on parade. Yet these organizations shape the thoughts and beliefs of way to many Americans.

Fully agree...

 

Gun control is an issue generated by the communist left in this country. It's our Constitutional right to own and lawfully use them. The Second Amendment was installed by the founders to protect the people from its government, which may be usurped by the communist left. My 7th grade algebra teacher had a pistol locked in his desk drawer. He showed it to me. I'm sure he wasn't the only one. Any goth-like, mental misfit would not have gotten very far in that school. Isn't it interesting that the shooter in this tragedy only stopped shooting and killed himself when he had a gun pointed back at him?

 

Lord, take these innocent souls into Thine hand. Grant strength to the family and know that, in the end, evil will be vanquished by Thy judgement. Thy Will be done. Amen

There are situations where guns are called for, a school classroom is not one of them. If you need to hunt to survive, by all means, demonstrate to a competent organisation that you're responsible enough to own and handle a gun and go hunt away! If you live in an urban area with all the pleasantries of daily life, what exactly do you need a AR-15 for? Fine, it can be a hobby, but wouldn't it make more sense to leave the gun at a shooting range, since that's the only place you're allowed to use it anyway? You have no need for semi-automatic rifles if you live in a suburban/urban area, and a need for a gun like an AR-15 in a rural area is quite debatable. British farmers seem to do fine with their shotguns limited to three rounds. In a built-up area, you don't need a gun: not for protection, not for hunting, not for anything. I've been to a shooting range, it was a fun experience, really, but there's no way in hell I'd purchase a gun. There is absolutely no reason for me to have one, and if I ever get an itchy trigger finger, I can just drive to a range.

[Great Ozzie 101]

Fine, it can be a hobby, but wouldn't it make more sense to leave the gun at a shooting range, since that's the only place you're allowed to use it anyway? You have no need for semi-automatic rifles if you live in a suburban/urban area, and a need for a gun like an AR-15 in a rural area is quite debatable.

 

There was a person I saw who specifically addressed this issue... Alan Gottlieb... who spoke about shop owners defending themselves during the L.A. riots w/ AR-15s and I think also during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

 

[HiFlyer 9,410]

There was a person I saw who specifically addressed this issue... Alan Gottlieb... who spoke about shop owners defending themselves during the L.A. riots w/ AR-15s and I think also during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

 

 

If its ok to go that far, then why not some warning grenades and maybe a flame thrower? And mines. The area in front of the store should definitely have been mined.

 

How much is too much, and how far is too far?

 

After all, its a right to bear arms...... Why not any arms at all?

 

Or do we acknowledge that society's have the right to set limits in the interests of overall public safety?

[Great Ozzie 101]

How much is too much, and how far is too far?

 

After all, its a right to bear arms...... Why not any arms at all?

 

I think already pretty well defined by law e.g. in the '34 National Firearms Act, '68 Gun Control Act, '86 Firearm Owners Protection Act (Hughes Amendment) etc...

 

Or do we acknowledge that society's have the right to set limits in the interests of overall public safety?

 

So your argument is we will all be safe if we outlaw weapons like the AR-15?

 

How many State & Federal Laws did Lanza break during his atrocity? You think creating more laws will somehow prevent this? Like the ones on the books were not enough already? And one more law outlawing these weapons from future purchase somehow puts the genie back in the bottle?

[SpiritFlyer 987]

There is a conversation from the Turner TV Movie "Gettysburg" (one of my all time favorite flicks) where a line is spoken by a wise old Irish born sargeant to his commanding officer in response to being asked about the Black (enslaved) race:

 

"Tell me something, Buster... what do you think of Negroes?

 

Well, if you mean the race...I don't really know. This is not a thing to be ashamed of. The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time.

 

To me, there was never any difference."

 

I have found out long ago that you can't judge any man (or woman or child) by whatever group, race, nationality, religious or political point of view they may belong to or hold (within reason). Most of us don't perfectly fully live up to our ideals anyway, no matter what we may wishfully think or declare.

 

When it comes to moral standards and selfless acts, there is no corner on nobility, for it is found everywhere, spread more or less equally to all sides.

 

Kind regards,

[OzWhitey 3,353]

Isn't it interesting that you are only allowed to invoke the name of God (whoever your God is) after a tragedy such as this occurs on public school property.

 

Evil exists. Evil has always existed. Evil will always exist. The number of these types of tragedies is actually decreasing per capita. The only difference now is we have hundreds of 24 hour news channels who must fill the airways with the topic du jour. And if you'll notice, the news media got everything wrong in the beginning. Incompetence on parade. Yet these organizations shape the thoughts and beliefs of way to many Americans.

 

Gun control is an issue generated by the communist left in this country. It's our Constitutional right to own and lawfully use them. The Second Amendment was installed by the founders to protect the people from its government, which may be usurped by the communist left. My 7th grade algebra teacher had a pistol locked in his desk drawer. He showed it to me. I'm sure he wasn't the only one. Any goth-like, mental misfit would not have gotten very far in that school. Isn't it interesting that the shooter in this tragedy only stopped shooting and killed himself when he had a gun pointed back at him?

 

Lord, take these innocent souls into Thine hand. Grant strength to the family and know that, in the end, evil will be vanquished by Thy judgement. Thy Will be done. Amen

 

CNN quoted the rate of gun homicide as being 30 times in the US what it is in my country, Australia.

 

It's legitimate to argue that a society should be allowed to own guns such as an ar-15 - but if your country decides to do so it needs to accept that the rate of deaths from firearms will be much higher than the world's baseline. Plenty of crazy and evil people everywhere, but in most countries they can't get hold of an assault rifle.

[n4gix 4,968]

Begging your pardon? I think you mean to say that "for some, it's important to have faith in something". I'm an atheist, and I've never found the need for a higher power of any kind. I simply make the best of what I've got and do my best because you only get one chance to make a difference (IMO). Not everyone needs to believe in something that may, or may not exist.

Ró, in my considered opinion, even atheists have faith, of a sort at least. No one is without a belief system, as even "unbelief in any existing religious system" is in and of itself a "belief!" B)

 

"Morality" and "Ethics" are not abstractions that are limited to any formal religious system, but transcend both. In short, "there is no one true way," IMHO. We all have to assume personal responsibility for our actions. At best, any "religious system" has the capacity to assist us to shape our moral and ethical compasses, but it remains our task to allow that shaping to take place.

 

As anecdotal evidence (but certainly not formal "proof") of my statements, two of my closest friends growing up were twins and were raised by throughly moral and ethical atheistic parents. One of the twins has -as an adult- evidenced morality and ethics worthy of a Saint, yet the other twin is now one of the most amoral and monstrous persons I've ever had the displeasure to know. He is currently serving six life sentences without possibility of parole for the murder of his wife and children at Central Prison in Raleigh, North Carolina.

 

I cannot blame Nature or Nurture for this outcome. Rather I must look at this as a personal failure of Chad to willingly participate in the shaping process. "Free Will" is not something confined to any particular belief system.

[Swofford 155]

Just to clarify something for our foreign friends. The Second Amendment has zilch to do with hunting. It's design was for citizens to have protection from the government going nuts, intruders, riots whatever. Never is the word hunting used. I have several AR 15's and hand guns. While I accept you don't get it criminals don't get to determine what I do with my life. Drunk drivers don't get to decide if I can have a beer.