'Fresh pilots' maybe true of the 747 training, but not for the 737. The whole marketing premise behind the 737 training was to learn to fly like a pro. That was never going to be an easy task to accomplish; but if you wish to market a product in such a way, to the most hard core of simmers, and charge more than the aircraft itself, it's naieve to expect much in the way of mercy. Especially if the videos make it look like you didn't read the manual.

 

Thank You Jordan for clarification. It changes my point of view a little bit regarding the discussion. Anyway, I'll stick to the paper manuals. They are very well written and easy to follow, plus they were made by Boeing, so I will be assured I fly like the career pilot. I did not touch 737NG yet, but I do know that FD will provide V₂ +15 to V₂ + 25 guidance after liftoff. It is not a secret knowledge and I am very far away from ATPL crew...

...which is essentially my point. To a simmer, if someone has any real pilot license (especially Comm or higher), what they say has to be true. To often, in this hobby and in real aviation, people hear a licensed pilot say something and assume he or she knows everything there is to know about everything. As you mentioned, this may or may not be true.

 

I was really just pointing out that the earlier point made by someone - that the maker of the videos is a real world PPL+IR - doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be credible on all accounts.

You're absolutely right. I'd fail the oral portion of a PPL checkride if I had to take it today.

 

I didn't mean to offend, I just thought I read somewhere in the past you had done a lot of filming in one go. I appreciate what you are doing which is why I bought the series in the first place

 

Now worries, my friend. I hope you're enjoying it so far. I think the VAST majority of people REALLY enjoy this training. There are different levels of simmers out there, and therefore different expectations. The expectations of a beginner aren't the same as a 12 year veteren. 

 

We have to find some middle ground to build everyone up in the same way, offer value, etc. 

 

These 12 year vets are about to get the crap kicked out of them in the flights Jason does. Flight #5 is now released, and will challenge any pilot. 

 

I think you need to consider external persons carrying out tests of your training packages prior to release. Note their comments, revise it, resubmit, if "most" happy, then go for it. If you already have these people, then their error filtering needs to be lifted. While PMDG guys frustrate the $%^ out of us with delays etc, they know only too well, simple errors can hurt them more than a delayed release.

 

Hey Geoff,

Thanks for the encouragement, and the great reply. Much appreciated. You have been a voice of reason in this post, and I really appreciate that. It's often easy to jump to conclusions, but you've really wanted to get the facts straight. Thanks for that!

 

First of all, I didn't know that's what our forum said. Can you tell me exactly where you found that? 

We're trying to accomplish something in those words, but it could be said in a much better way. First, we want to help people with their issues. We do not actively monitor every post. We do however monitor tickets. 

 

What we want to avoid is people posting issues there, and then getting upset because we're not responding, and then getting venomous about it. We'd rather they come to us for support. 

 

Anyhow, that needs changing. 

 

As far as the selected quote above, you're right. We have quality assurance on our GroundWork stuff, but it's difficult to get it on our FlightWork stuff. Especially to find people that are objective about it, and know that there are other concerns than just perfect switch position. That, if we HAVE to redo something, it's going to cost a whole lot of money, take a lot of time, etc. 

 

If it passes all those tests, then yes, it will be redone. Which is why Flight #4 may get redone for FlightWork. We'll see with the reaction on this survey, though. 

 

I don't pretend it's easy, but you need to get out of your defensive mind set. While your preflight videos IMO have been quite good, the flights themselves feel like they were all cobbled together in an afternoon. Accuse me of flaming you all you like, but that's how I, and I suspect many others feel.

 

It's impossible to do something like this in an afternoon, and that's why I'm 'defensive'. There's a disconnect and a lack of understanding with many people (I don't fault them) on how much work goes into creating videos. With GroundWork, people expected basically one every day. The level at which we do this is NOT like a Youtube video that's just thrown together. We have many graphic assets that go along with what we do, and also a lesson that fits into an overall course and structure. 

 

Things like the iPad on the screen are not that easy to do. It's a completely separate layer and video, it has to be synced up, cut, etc, etc. 

 

Apart from that, these lessons will be seen by thousands of people. So there's the stress of doing it right. And the flights are never flown right the first time. I have to redo them to get them right. 

 

So no, they aren't just thrown together. There are many, many hours both pre, present and post production that are spent tweaking and refining these videos. 

 

Once it's done, then it goes to rendering and publishing, which takes hours itself as well. 

 

I'll defend that position, because not many people understand that. 

 

Yes professional pilots will make mistakes. However the errors present in your video don't demonstrate your human fallibility, they demonstrate you haven't fully understood the operation of the aircraft. This may sound rather harsh but taking the MCP speed as an example, the FCOM specifically states you should use V2. While it's perfectly possible you, or indeed a professional pilot, may inadvertently enter the wrong V speed on the MCP, this isn't what your mistake was: you simply didn't know what the correct value should have been in the first place; a professional pilot would. This is a subtle but very important distinction.
 
I know the errors listed above may seem small, but it's precisely this details that I, and I suspect many others, purchased your videos to learn.
 
I hope you'll find this more reasonable, albeit unpleasant to read.

 

Yes, your tone is reasonable. Thank you. 

 

Each mistake I've made, I've generally had a chance to correct it. When you enter V2 (which is the correct setting), it still jumps to V2+20 after takeoff. That was the part I had confused. 

 

It was corrected for the remaining 3 flights.

 

And I want to point out that you're picking out one thing in 4 hours of footage to critique. The information in that first flight was incredibly in depth. We sat on the ground pouring over every part of the cockpit, talking about the practical application, for nearly 3 of those hours. 

 

I can only assume that because you hadn't pointed anything out there, that it's nearly flawless. 

 

Flawless, and, impractical. Real crews know how to do that stuff, so that's why in the later flights we pick up the pace, and start barreling through. 

 

What has me a bit tweaked about all this is that there are a few minor errors that are being pointed out, almost all of which I've corrected. 

 

Someone else mentioned Anti-Ice. I explained that in depth several times. The simulator does NOT act the same as real world. In the real world you have visual indications of ice, and you can blast off the wing ice in 1 minute cycles. 

 

In the simulator, you still get the icing consequences, without the visual cues. It's a silent killer. 

 

So our SIMULATOR procedure is different than the real world procedure. I know and recognize this. 

 

(By the way, if you take a fuel injected single engine aircraft through icing conditions in FS, and you don't have carb heat on (yes, it doesn't have a carburetor) you're going to fall out of the sky.)

 

Just an example of things we have to do different. 

 

You guys are welcome to run icing cycles as they do in the real world. But it's going to come back to bite you eventually. 

 

Our anti-ice procedures (especially engine) are totally correct. I studied and studied that topic, and I'm confident in our methods. We have to tweak wing ice, but there you go. 

 

Thanks again. 

Hi Chris, thanks for the taking the time to reply to people's comments.

 

I didn't mean I was expecting you to be laughing and joking all the time, but there was just something about these videos that came across as if you were stressed and uninterested. All other videos you have done you have a very different tone, and sound like an enthusiast, really into what you are doing. I know you're only human, but I can't help thinking the big mistakes that came up in these videos and the above are all related. I hope you will be doing the 777 flightwork videos, and I hope when the time comes, you'll have more time to do them.

 

This is really good feedback. And I sort of agree. I think I could really pick up the energy as I teach. This is something I will certainly be working on. Thanks!

 

Actually I am reading all the 737NG documentation (did not purchased it yet, I am so busy with JS41...), it will take a month or so - if I would not have the time to read all the stuff (which I personally believe is crucial for proper commanding the airplane), I would simply buy the AoA's product. They promised 30hrs of material as far as I remember. That would be about half the time needed to read PMDG's tutorials and FCTM/FCOM + briefly scan of QRH. Plus, You can see the action, not only read about it... And I bet I will have to read it all again after I will purchase the 73NG and take it for a few legs. I am in a comfort of having the time to read, but not everybody has - remember that. That's why AoA is here for us.

 

Bartlomiej,

Thanks! You nailed it. 

 

Our 747 Training is nowhere NEAR as complex as this 737 Training. The 747 Training is about 8 and a half hours long if my memory serves me right. That includes all of the systems, procedures, and the flight we do. 

 

737... GroundWork alone is 20 lessons, and 9 and a half hours. 

 

I haven't even started to tally FlightWork, but lets see... 4 hours, flight 1, 2.5 flight 2, 2 hours flight 3, 2.5 Flight 4, flight 5 is 4.5, with a current total of 15.5 hours Flight Training. Pretty crazy. 

 

I'd say we've gone beyond the 'just beginners' and we're into a whole different area now. I don't think you can learn to fly from manuals. I just don't believe it. It doesn't make any common sense to me. Videos are the second greatest thing we can do apart from teaching 1-on-1. Highly visual, you get to SEE what to do, and get all the others cues, not just the manuals stuff. 

 

Anyway, thanks!

 

Putting a comment in the video wasn't an option. The mistake wasn't identified until the video was posted; then viewers (those that were supposed to be learning, not doing the teaching) identified the problem.

 

Putting a comment in the video is still an option, actually. We have the ability to do things like that. I explained this in the other reply I had for you, Jordan. At least this particular mistake. 

 

 

I was denied the (partial) refund I requested, because I purchased the Captains package longer than 30 days ago. In fact, I purchased it in August 2011.

 

If you purchased that long ago, I can see the reason for the denial. That was quite a long time outside the 30 Days. We may extend our policy on that, though. I'll have a think about it. 

 

We've got to keep this stuff within reason. Very, very few FS companies do refunds. That fact that we do them at all (after you've had a chance to enjoy and download the material) is telling on how we view our customer relationships for the long term. 

 

We just think there should be some sort of middle ground, otherwise we'd get hosed.

 

 

'Fresh pilots' maybe true of the 747 training, but not for the 737. The whole marketing premise behind the 737 training was to learn to fly like a pro. That was never going to be an easy task to accomplish; but if you wish to market a product in such a way, to the most hard core of simmers, and charge more than the aircraft itself, it's naieve to expect much in the way of mercy. Especially if the videos make it look like you didn't read the manual.

 

A ton of assumptions here, like we didn't read the manuals. 

 

For all (not just Jordan) we do offer a professional solution. I've laid out the scope of our training so far, and also the fact that we do things others can't, and things manuals can't. We have a LOT of material, and it's very, very professional in terms of what is taught (and the accuracy) and the actual production quality. 

 

Professionalism is not perfection. We offer a very professional package with this training, and what this entire thread is about is a few minor mistakes that were made in the nearly 30 hours of training we've done. 

 

I was really just pointing out that the earlier point made by someone - that the maker of the videos is a real world PPL+IR - doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be credible on all accounts.

 

You're completely right. It totally don't know everything. There's a TON I don't know. This is what I love about aviation; there's always something new and exciting to learn, if not simply refine or expound. 

 

You're absolutely right. I'd fail the oral portion of a PPL checkride if I had to take it today.

 

Bahaha! Wouldn't we all. Only so much can fit upstairs. It's that age-old PMS- Pilot Memory Syndrome. 

Just a heads up, flight 5 is up and it's a really good one, I really enjoyed it and I'm pleased with it, I learnt alot :-)

 

Poor Jason couldn't have got worse weather if he tried, but he acted calmy and professionally (....and well I won't spoil the surprise).

I think Jason actually did try to pick a date with extremely bad weather.

Flight 5 is a lot better straight to the point and into it .

All this and I was just about to pull the trigger on the MD-11 series last night. Now I am thinking twice.

 

Can anyone comment if they have the MD-11 series as to the quality difference if any that I am reading here?

The MD series is really well done!

Imo their best work so far.

 

 

David

I feel I have to point out one glaring fact unless I missed it along the way through all these pages. 

 

Last time I checked, I have never seen a commercial airliner flight without a FO.  And last time I checked they dont hire robots. They are all humans. On the point of making mistakes, there is a reason it is a two man crew. If one makes a mistake the other can pick up on it, and figure it out. Goes for both Captain and FO. If you watch Just Planes videos they are constantly in agreement and verified. So if an erroneous thing is put into the FMC and things are not making sense, you have two heads to figure out whats going on. 

 

These videos and all us simmers are flying as single pilots. Not in a cessna, in a Boeing aircraft or of the like meant for two.

 

So this goes back to the MD11 videos which I thought were fantastic. Learned a hell of a lot. But comparing them now to the current 737 flightwork videos, the point of it being live makes it that much better. Scripted is great but its perfect in an imperfect world.  When you go to school, at least back in my day, the teacher purposely did things wrong to see who picks up on things and why and tackle them from there. The point is that is how we learn the best.  

 

And you can bet Boeing is learning from engineering mistakes of the 787. The next time we will do things differently because we will have retained it better. 

 

Just saw Jasons Flight 5 video and its a handful.  Again it comes to the point of a missing FO, but he was very professional in keeping calm. In a simulator in particular and in this case the weather not playing nice with different updates is our simulation world not being exactly as the real world. 

Even then Jason did an outstanding job of figuring things out in what was a dire situation. If it was scripted this would have gone all perfectly planned out and that doesnt happen in RW. Add in ATC which he didnt have on this flight and things are different again. You will not get this kind of indepth on  a youtube video. 

 

Thanks for the hardwork, owning up to mistakes, but teaching that we learn from mistakes and adapt to the situation at hand. These are not the kind that send us into the ground, they are there to make us better pilots. Its why Real World pilots have to go and refresh to dire circumstances at a real simulator, and ive seen them coming out of there sweating. 

 

Look forward to 777 training. This is fun. 

Flight 5 is a lot better straight to the point and into it .

Couldnt agree more  this  is 100 percent  better  than the first  4 flights, now  only if  they  can keep it  at  this  standard

 

First of all, I didn't know that's what our forum said. Can you tell me exactly where you found that? 
We're trying to accomplish something in those words, but it could be said in a much better way. First, we want to help people with their issues. We do not actively monitor every post. We do however monitor tickets.

 

 

Hi Chris,

Please see the link to the comments made by one of your employees regarding comments not allowed to be posted on your website forum.

 

http://www.flyaoamedia.com/forum/pmdg-737ngx-training/quick-note-on-using-the-forums/

 

Chris, I have sent a note via PM rather than lengthen this subject further.

 

 

I am grateful of AoA for making our complicated hobby more understandable for new virtual captains out here - they material is easy to digest, very well narrated and the video assembly is one of the best in virtual aviation world.

The quote from Bart is spot on. Sure, mistakes happen in the training...so...get over it, I recall the NGX tutorial 2 from Ryan had a few mistakes in it. He simply said, yeah, your right etc, we shall post a page revision. Posters took great delight in scouring the tutorial and finding errors and eventually a few revisions appeared and a revised page came out from a poster,a few times as I recall as other mistakes were found in the revisions of revisions. In my last life I was a SAP developer and help desk person who also wrote SAP training material. It is so so difficult to get everything right, even with others revising it. The mind says one thing and the fingers do another. I think if you want 99% quality, then get your self off to a Boeing School and spends the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Keep at it Chis, you are appreciated.

Regards

It is important to note that I was not particularly disappointed with the "quality" of flight work ... I was dissappointed with the fact that on the four screens that I used to purchase Flight Work ... nowhere did it state that it was a work in progress ... I hope they have changed that by now. I was very appreciative and quite impressed with their willingness to grant a refund. I stated that appreciation to them in our email conversations and made the remark that when they do finish with the full 30+ hours send me an email and they'll get my money back.

 

For now ... I'll wait. I'm pretty curious about the ground work though ... no one have called into question the quality of that aspect of the 737 treatment.

 

It was also good to see Chris jump in here. Most well managed companies do not become enraged with negative criticism ... they put in place measures to address those issues and become better at what they do.

When i first bought  the  package(when it  was first released) there was  a disclaimer  in red letters  saying  the product  was in progress  and  now  when i checked  its in black letters  saying  it  will be releasd in stages so you might have  missed it.

 

The quality of the ground work is good and it shows the inner workings  of the  737 in detail on how  things  work.

I feel I have to point out one glaring fact unless I missed it along the way through all these pages. 

 

Last time I checked, I have never seen a commercial airliner flight without a FO.  And last time I checked they dont hire robots. They are all humans. On the point of making mistakes, there is a reason it is a two man crew. If one makes a mistake the other can pick up on it, and figure it out. Goes for both Captain and FO. If you watch Just Planes videos they are constantly in agreement and verified. So if an erroneous thing is put into the FMC and things are not making sense, you have two heads to figure out whats going on. 

 

In this instance, mistakes fall into one of two catagories. 1) You knew what the required action/proceedure was, but didn't do it/got it wrong or 2) You never knew what the correct action/proeedure was in the first place. If you're making a living from teaching, producing "professional" training videos then I'd suggest that mistakes in catagory 1 are arguably acceptable, but those in catagory 2 are certainly not.

 

As for the FO argument, yes the videos are recorded by one person; however there's nothing to stop someone else checking them before they're released, so I don't think that's a valid excuse.

 

Flight 5 sounds like it's much better though, so hopefully they're getting back on track.

 

Flight 5 sounds like it's much better though, so hopefully they're getting back on track.

 

I found Flight 5 really well done and Jason went through checklists continually, verifying everything and was very thorough and professional. I actually learned quite a bit from this video that I haven't got from elsewhere, e.g. About the HUD and setting it up correctly etc.. Unlike a lot of people here, I don't like reading through manuals, I also skimmed through the groundwork as it was just too much information to take in. I prefer to see it hands on with someone explaining what and why they are doing it.